4 piece Rod Geeks surf rod

[ReelFishingProblems]

Good morning / good afternoon,

I am in the process of building a 4-piece surf rod on a Rod Geeks SRF100MMF4 blank. This is a medium power, moderate fast action 10' blank for 8-20lb line and 3/4-4oz lures.

This rod is going to built for a purpose which will reveal when it's done (need to keep this post interesting  )

I'm building this as a spinning rod using Fuji guides. Currently still deciding on guide size. Right now I have a size 25 for the stripper guide, then 20-16-12-10. I'm still debating if I should go with a 30 for the stripper guide. Current stripper guide placement is a 26" from the lead edge of the red seat. This is due to where the joint between the 2nd and 3rd section are. The line lay from a slammer 560LL makes a slight bend on the stripper guide before going to the first reduction guide. I am open for suggestions here.

I plan to post the progress of this project as I go. Can't wait for the big reveal. Also I need to thank Thorhammer for helping with this project. He sourced the blank and donated it for the cause. 

[ReelFishingProblems]

The decorative wrapping above the fore-grip will be a tiger stripe wrap. Base layer is all size D pro-wrap gold, blue, and yellow. The top wrap is still up for debate. I may do one section as blue and the other as yellow, or all one color blue or yellow. I will be using two sacrificial threads.

[JasonGotaProblem]

My irrelevant opinion is move the bottom guide further up, like closer to 36" from the seat, and I'm fond of the casting I'm seeing using a 30-20-10-8- reduction with sz 6 runners.

That opinion and $1.50 will get you a cup of coffee somewhere.

[ReelFishingProblems]

Jason,

Thank you for the input. Is that same reduction and stripper spacing for a 10' rod? The 30 already feels huge spaced at 26" but the line lay is right. I'm used to a huge stripper guide using Fuji BVSOGs in a cone of flight layout.
Luckily I have a bit of time to figure out the guides and spacing (bought more guides than I needed because I'm learning this happens every time).

Just put the first layer of epoxy over the base wraps. For those who have done tiger stripe wraps (I've only done one and I loved how it came out) would you do two epoxy coats on the base wraps even on a lighter rod? I'm using high build so I think it won't be necessary and I'll still get nice distortion.

Nick

[ReelFishingProblems]

I should add I plan on doing a sort of modified COF layout. A 10' blank is long enough to do a COF layout as if it was a 9' rod then add a runner or two. I've done this setup on another spinning rod and liked how it casts.

The coolest thing about taping your guides on is the ability to mess around and try different things. I have one rod I built that the guides are placed great for the angle between the spool and the rod as well as for static load but it is aesthetically troubling. It casts great... it will eventually be tore down and rewrapped to alleviate the frustrating appearance

[Jeri]

One thinvg I have found out about all folks that get sand on their feet to cast and fish, is that they thrive on maximum distance attainable. Here in Namibia, all our surf anglers have a huge desire to fish in the coastal waters of Brazil!!

Cone of Flight system isn't wrong because it is dated, but there are more advanced schemes that provide a huge increase in distance performance such as NGC and KR Concept. Since we started playing around with both these concepts on our dedicated distance surf rods, we have adapted to challenge some of the essentials prescribed by Fuji, to the point that we have greatly extended the distance between the reel seat and the first guide, and found that with pretty much every step that we have taken, that distance increases, and only when we start to get seriously radical in that first dimension, do we start to suffer some fish fighting power loss. Admittedly, we are building and fishing with much longer rods, some 14' and 15'long, but we have found also that the same principles work and apply to shorter rods.

Before commenting on what we have achieved, a point worth noting is that we have noticed a huge drop in blank performance when using 2 leg guides over 1 leg guides, to the point now where out standard is to use a couple (2 or 3) 2 leg guides, then switch to 1 leg guides for the whole of the top of the rod. People comment that this is 'finding power', but in actuality it is just removing the damping effect of 2 leg guides.

On a 12' 2-3oz surf spinning rod that we developed, we went through typical CoF layout, then full KR guides with NCG, and finally we ended up with a full single leg guide KC Concept layout - the final variant was casting near 50% further than the original designs, and with absolutely zero incidence of line wraps during casting. We have since transferred that design with small changes to an 11' rod of similar design, and still the same results - big distance and trouble free casting and fighting of fish. The same extended first measurement has also been applied to a little ultra-light 5-20 gram rod, that is just 7'-8" long, and we are getting huge distances with that design as well.

For the 12' and 11' designs we are using KL20H, KL16H, KL10M, KT6x5 for use with braid, and have no problems what so ever. With a first dimension between reel seat and first guide of 58" - and while it looks unconventional, it casts like a dream - 140 metres (420 feet) with just a 3oz sinker. Even on the ultra-light rod, we start the guides at 30", using a spread of KL16H, KL10H, KL8M and KT5 x4.

This anomalous scheme that we have developed had given me a lot of concerns as and engineer, as it is so unconventional, but is best explained that first guides so close to the reel face have a huge amount of circular energy, and hence need big heavy guides to cope with all the energy, and this can at times lead to line/guide wraps as the guide cannot cope with the energy. By pushing the first guide dimensions out, more of the circular energy is dissipated, and the line flow can be accommodated by smaller guides without problems.

Just some of our experiences shared. Even our 15' long rods look seriously unconventional, with the first guide set at nearly 8' (96") from the reel seat, but attain distances of over 200 metres with 6oz sinkers.

[bill19804]

make  sure  you  wrap and apply finish to  both  male  and  female  ferrules  before  you  try  whipping   it

[jurelometer]

One thinvg I have found out about all folks that get sand on their feet to cast and fish, is that they thrive on maximum distance attainable. Here in Namibia, all our surf anglers have a huge desire to fish in the coastal waters of Brazil!!

Cone of Flight system isn't wrong because it is dated, but there are more advanced schemes that provide a huge increase in distance performance such as NGC and KR Concept. Since we started playing around with both these concepts on our dedicated distance surf rods, we have adapted to challenge some of the essentials prescribed by Fuji, to the point that we have greatly extended the distance between the reel seat and the first guide, and found that with pretty much every step that we have taken, that distance increases, and only when we start to get seriously radical in that first dimension, do we start to suffer some fish fighting power loss. Admittedly, we are building and fishing with much longer rods, some 14' and 15'long, but we have found also that the same principles work and apply to shorter rods.

Before commenting on what we have achieved, a point worth noting is that we have noticed a huge drop in blank performance when using 2 leg guides over 1 leg guides, to the point now where out standard is to use a couple (2 or 3) 2 leg guides, then switch to 1 leg guides for the whole of the top of the rod. People comment that this is 'finding power', but in actuality it is just removing the damping effect of 2 leg guides.

On a 12' 2-3oz surf spinning rod that we developed, we went through typical CoF layout, then full KR guides with NCG, and finally we ended up with a full single leg guide KC Concept layout - the final variant was casting near 50% further than the original designs, and with absolutely zero incidence of line wraps during casting. We have since transferred that design with small changes to an 11' rod of similar design, and still the same results - big distance and trouble free casting and fighting of fish. The same extended first measurement has also been applied to a little ultra-light 5-20 gram rod, that is just 7'-8" long, and we are getting huge distances with that design as well.

For the 12' and 11' designs we are using KL20H, KL16H, KL10M, KT6x5 for use with braid, and have no problems what so ever. With a first dimension between reel seat and first guide of 58" - and while it looks unconventional, it casts like a dream - 140 metres (420 feet) with just a 3oz sinker. Even on the ultra-light rod, we start the guides at 30", using a spread of KL16H, KL10H, KL8M and KT5 x4.

This anomalous scheme that we have developed had given me a lot of concerns as and engineer, as it is so unconventional, but is best explained that first guides so close to the reel face have a huge amount of circular energy, and hence need big heavy guides to cope with all the energy, and this can at times lead to line/guide wraps as the guide cannot cope with the energy. By pushing the first guide dimensions out, more of the circular energy is dissipated, and the line flow can be accommodated by smaller guides without problems.

Just some of our experiences shared. Even our 15' long rods look seriously unconventional, with the first guide set at nearly 8' (96") from the reel seat, but attain distances of over 200 metres with 6oz sinkers.

I always look forward to Jeri's rod building posts!

This makes so much sense.  With no guides, the coils will be the largest shortly after leaving the spinning reel spool, diminishing in size toward the sinker.  The farther from the spool for the first guides, the smaller the coils, the less energy is lost to coils impacting the first couple guide frames and rings.  The tradeoff is that you will be less able to load the bottom end of the blank, but with a longer surf rod, the bottom end should be acting more as a lever, so the tradeoff favors a very aggressive placement of the first guide when casting distance is the primary goal.

But folk want their rods to look like they expect them to look, so it is always difficult to find the first couple pioneers in a new region.

-J

[Jeri]

But folk want their rods to look like they expect them to look, so it is always difficult to find the first couple pioneers in a new region.

And there is the rub, 'conventional or traditional rules'. This is very similar to the negative approach towards 'acid wrapped' rods - folks not prepared to accept a visual challenge to their view of what is acceptable, irrespective of the loss in performance.

We see a lot of anglers coming into the shop with conventionally built factory surf rods for braid and spinning reels complaining about lack of performance, and invariably the rod has been built with K guides, and the first is very close to the reel, my response to just cut off the first guide seems very abrupt to them, especially as in some cases they have spent the equivalent of US$600+ for the rod. For those that do brave this solution, they almost always find an instant 10% improvement, and I then offer another 15-20% improvement by replacing all the guides with a new scheme.

The old concept of big guides for spinning reels and nylon was disproved many years ago with the Omura Theory - 1960's, but still tradition prevails, and persists to those using braid. A fellow 'long spacing' surf angler in the UK, starts his first size 30 K guide at a full 96" from the reel seat, he hasn't yet built a new rod using the much smaller guides, but it is his next project.

I've discussed this conflict between visual aspects and performance with a number of very specialist blank manufacturers, and even in carp fishing there is this huge resistance to change, to the point the manufacturer built 4 rods, 2 conventional and 2 with long first spacing, and held an open day for casters to come and sample his latest blank design for carp fishing at distance - irrespective of the performance shown, he took 80% more orders that day for the conventional built rods, which over a wide range of casting skills averaged out as 20% down on distance.

Perhaps you can't give the market what it doesn't want?

[Cor]

But folk want their rods to look like they expect them to look, so it is always difficult to find the first couple pioneers in a new region.

And there is the rub, 'conventional or traditional rules'. This is very similar to the negative approach towards 'acid wrapped' rods - folks not prepared to accept a visual challenge to their view of what is acceptable, irrespective of the loss in performance.

We see a lot of anglers coming into the shop with conventionally built factory surf rods for braid and spinning reels complaining about lack of performance, and invariably the rod has been built with K guides, and the first is very close to the reel, my response to just cut off the first guide seems very abrupt to them, especially as in some cases they have spent the equivalent of US$600+ for the rod. For those that do brave this solution, they almost always find an instant 10% improvement, and I then offer another 15-20% improvement by replacing all the guides with a new scheme.

The old concept of big guides for spinning reels and nylon was disproved many years ago with the Omura Theory - 1960's, but still tradition prevails, and persists to those using braid. A fellow 'long spacing' surf angler in the UK, starts his first size 30 K guide at a full 96" from the reel seat, he hasn't yet built a new rod using the much smaller guides, but it is his next project.

I've discussed this conflict between visual aspects and performance with a number of very specialist blank manufacturers, and even in carp fishing there is this huge resistance to change, to the point the manufacturer built 4 rods, 2 conventional and 2 with long first spacing, and held an open day for casters to come and sample his latest blank design for carp fishing at distance - irrespective of the performance shown, he took 80% more orders that day for the conventional built rods, which over a wide range of casting skills averaged out as 20% down on distance.

Perhaps you can't give the market what it doesn't want?

Perhaps you can't give the market what it doesn't want?

Agree, you cant!  Advertising, marketing and business preferences tell consumers how it should be.    I sometimes use a shortish acid wrap rod that works perfectly and others laugh and ask "what I had been smoking"

Just something else, Years back one of my friends held the view that 5 guides on a rod was all you needed as it cast far superior and was lighter.    This also resulted in the first guide having to be a long way from the reel seat.

With a conventional setup, reel at the back and on top, if it's a strong fast action rod that hardly bends in the rear all's fine, until you have a large fish on the end of your line.  The line ends up over your hand and under the rod!

I now use softer and more parabolic rods that are more Medium/Fast action.   For the same reason this becomes a far bigger problem because it flexes too much.   I need to place the first guide closer to the reel and use a very high guide as well to avoid the line cutting my wrist

So there are other considerations, we don't all use spinning reels.

[JasonGotaProblem]

This is a fun one. I too look forward to Jeri commenting, i tend to learn stuff.

The reason I said 36" was because it's probably a good idea to distribute the load a bit across the blank, while still maximizing the distance between seat and first guide. So for a 4 piece rod I'd likely skip the 2nd lowest section entirely and start my guides at the bottom of the 3rd section. Also more than anything, test your placement! Throw some casts and see if you can see the line ever slapping the blank, and adjust placement til that reduces to zero. That's where you'll lose more momentum than anything to do with guide size or material. I've been known to shortcut the process by attaching the end of the line to an empty spool that prior braid had been purchased on, attaching that to a high rpm drill, and stripping off line as fast as possible while watching the line flow through the blanks, and using slow mo mode on my phone to assist. If the line doesnt touch the blank doing that, it definitely won't touch on a cast. So far so good.

On rods that have more of a C than a J curve I tend to do a double foot guide as the bottom guide. I'm trying to explain what I see as undue stress on the guide and the blank, but i lack the wording to express myself. So I drew a pic instead.

[Breadfan]

The stripper guide should be about half of the diameter of the width of the spool you are using. Jeri is spot on with everything. I have been building using the NGC method and when you figure it out, it is a great a guideline. If you move things up and down a little, you can really maximize distance. This guide I've attached explains a lot. I've built on a couple of RodGeek blanks now, I think they are fantastic and this one is on my list! The perfect surf rod that I can stow in my Outback and always be ready!

[Jeri]

The stripper guide should be about half of the diameter of the width of the spool you are using. Jeri is spot on with everything. I have been building using the NGC method and when you figure it out, it is a great a guideline. If you move things up and down a little, you can really maximize distance. This guide I've attached explains a lot.

Stripper guide sizing is not my personal criteria, the smallest I can get away with before actual choking happens in the cast is what I'm working on. The likes of my personal 14' surf rod with a Cabo 60 reel (65mm diameter spool), has the first guide as a 16MLCSG - the height is more important to get the coils away from the blank during the cast.

I personally have a dislike for 'rules', as they are never precise enough to be fool proof. Rather I check by field casting a test rod with guides taped to the blank, then modify until satisfied. Lines touching blanks? Easy, dust with chalk dust and see where it might be happening, or not - you soon see - very low tech and effective.

With the 16M, set at 76" in front of the reel seat, I get no line slap on the blank, and a reverse coil of line coming back from the guide towards the handle, that at a guestimate is bout 16-20mm diameter - true harmonic line flow. Get a similar effect with LC20 as the stripper guide, but set at 70", though better distance with the smaller guide further up the rod.

Ultimately, all guide spacings should be working to the line exiting the blank in a straight line, on rods for spinning reels. This small fact is often overlooked and you can see coils flying beyond the tip. Hence, on a much earlier thread, I muted that the guides nearest the tip are usually my first consideration.

[Jeri]

Agree, you cant!  Advertising, marketing and business preferences tell consumers how it should be.    I sometimes use a shortish acid wrap rod that works perfectly and others laugh and ask "what I had been smoking"

Couldn't agree more, wrote a long detailed article in one of the leading SA angling mags about a surf casting design with acid wrap, and the only feedback I got, was that folks assumed it was an 'April Fool'. As a concept for surf casting with nylon and multipliers, it was superb, and near essential for rods handling large fish or sharks. We built a few for clients, and they now treasure them, as they work so well, but people still comment about the drunken rod builder.............

[Breadfan]

The stripper guide should be about half of the diameter of the width of the spool you are using. Jeri is spot on with everything. I have been building using the NGC method and when you figure it out, it is a great a guideline. If you move things up and down a little, you can really maximize distance. This guide I've attached explains a lot.

Stripper guide sizing is not my personal criteria, the smallest I can get away with before actual choking happens in the cast is what I'm working on. The likes of my personal 14' surf rod with a Cabo 60 reel (65mm diameter spool), has the first guide as a 16MLCSG - the height is more important to get the coils away from the blank during the cast.

I personally have a dislike for 'rules', as they are never precise enough to be fool proof. Rather I check by field casting a test rod with guides taped to the blank, then modify until satisfied. Lines touching blanks? Easy, dust with chalk dust and see where it might be happening, or not - you soon see - very low tech and effective.

With the 16M, set at 76" in front of the reel seat, I get no line slap on the blank, and a reverse coil of line coming back from the guide towards the handle, that at a guestimate is bout 16-20mm diameter - true harmonic line flow. Get a similar effect with LC20 as the stripper guide, but set at 70", though better distance with the smaller guide further up the rod.

Ultimately, all guide spacings should be working to the line exiting the blank in a straight line, on rods for spinning reels. This small fact is often overlooked and you can see coils flying beyond the tip. Hence, on a much earlier thread, I muted that the guides nearest the tip are usually my first consideration.

The NGC is a good way to get me started on the rod at hand, making changes along the way, test casting until it was right where I wanted it.