A Belleville in a spinner?

[JasonGotaProblem]

This might be a stretch. My understanding is that Belleville washers/springs are used to basically add pressure at low drag settings, but above a certain pressure they just flatten and behave like a washer.

Well on an old school spinner with an unsprung drag cap, it kinda feels like before the drag cap is in contact with the top washer, there's obviously no drag at all. At the point where it's actually in contact you instantly get some drag, but the minimum pressure is a bit more than I want it to be, and the difference between "no contact" and "more than i want" is maybe like 10° of rotation.

Could an enterprising fellow use a Belleville to improve the adjustability of lower range of the drag on a spinner? Or is there a better option?

Reel is a DQ1000, my understanding is the -01 series that replaced it has a sprung drag cap to address this, but I didn't realize that when I decided to go for the 1000 based on previously thinking the color scheme was the only difference between models.
Also I should add that there's no reason I cant just use it as is. It's perfectly functional. I just see room for improvement.

[Brewcrafter]

Will the later model drag cap function as a direct replacement? - john

[JasonGotaProblem]

Will the later model drag cap function as a direct replacement? - john

Unsure. I suspect it might but I know there's other drag changes between the "-00" and "-01" series and those changes may make the caps non interchangeable. I cant find a lot of info about specifications on the original 1000, there's very little online, there's a lot more about the 1001, and the existence of a "1000FD" released by the post-buyout DQ is muddying up the search results. I can't even find a legible 1000 schematic. Fred was kind enough to send me an image file. Better than nothing but its too grainy to read anything or even really identify smaller components.

[DougK]

I've done that on several reels, one being a DQ 220.. the trick is to find the washers with the correct sizing and desired compressibility, usually takes a lot of testing. Try split and curved washers also.
Typically you have to remove one or more of the existing washers to make room for the new ones.

[jurelometer]

This might be a stretch. My understanding is that Belleville washers/springs are used to basically add pressure at low drag settings, but above a certain pressure they just flatten and behave like a washer.

Not exactly- the drag setting is a result of the pressure(clamping load). Adding springs just changes the number of turns it takes to achieve the same load.


Short answer:  yes to the bellevilles if you can find the room. Good choice.


Long answer:  Sorry, but the science geek in my wants to get a bit more precise.  And I designed a couple spinner drag caps for myself a few years back, so I have been waiting for a chance to unload some acquired knowledge

More clamping load causes more force on the drag stack which results  more friction when turning (friction = force * coefficient of friction).

Adding springs to the stack only changes the amount of travel required to get the same clamping load.  More travel = more drag knob rotation = finer tuning.  Less rotation for more drag can be more useful, but folk seem to almost always care more about fine tuning.

In real life, I have found that adding bellevilles sometimes increases the top drag setting because the extra stack height keeps the drag knob from prematurely bottoming out.  You shouldn't lose any top end from adding bellevilles, which will  more or less act like a solid washer once fully compressed, as you noted.

In terms of which spring:    Bellevilles are usually a better option if you have some space.  They will distribute the load more evenly, which can be important for a drag stack. Waves washers are springs, but should not be stacked, and do not distribute the load evenly- but may be the only option if space is very limited.  Lock washers are not really intended to be used as a spring.  Coil springs need to be pretty beefy if they are not going to lose spring over time.  They really should be putting Bellevilles in most sprung caps IMHO.  Coils are nice if you want to run with really low clamping load and are mostly worried about the drag self loosening. The extra travel in the coil helps deal with  any misalignment at lower settings, which can be a problem with a spinner that uses drag clamping load to keep the spool aligned.

As DougK noted, it might take some messing around to find the right size/ thickness, and stack layout if you are picky about getting an exact behavior.


-J
 

[handi2]

real life, I have found that adding bellevilles sometimes increases the top drag setting because the extra stack height keeps the drag knob from prematurely bottoming out.  You shouldn't lose any top end from adding bellevilles, which will  more or less act like a solid washer once fully compressed, as you noted

This is where shims or thrust washers come into use. Not more spring washers

[jurelometer]

real life, I have found that adding bellevilles sometimes increases the top drag setting because the extra stack height keeps the drag knob from prematurely bottoming out.  You shouldn't lose any top end from adding bellevilles, which will  more or less act like a solid washer once fully compressed, as you noted

This is where shims or thrust washers come into use. Not more spring washers

Agree on the shims/spacers  if the only goal is to eliminate prematurely bottoming out. Have done this myself.   But the point here was that if the goal is to add some springiness to the stack, this can usually be accomplished without lowering the max drag setting, especially with bellevilles.

As you already know (but for folks that might not), thrust washers serve a different purpose than a spacer or shim - a thrust washer provides a flat rotational interface where there is axial load present.  Agree that a thrust washer should not be replaced with a belleville, but spacers, shims and wave washers are fair game in my view.

-J

[philaroman]

move this to correct section (DAM-spin)
wait for Fred to confirm 00/01 spools are interchangeable
get knob from Fred & treat yourself to 1001 spool, to make S/H less significant 
remember that planter you fixed -- reward time!!! 

[Midway Tommy]

Well, in the first place, I'm still trying to figure how much drag improvement can actually be accomplished on an UL, and second, when used as intended and designed, why is there a need to mess with something that works? On an UL, as long as the drag is smooth and efficient, that's all that really matters. If one is going after bigger fish than the reel is designed for then use a bigger, or better, reel.

[philaroman]

anyway, here's a really good Belleville 
don't know how you put that in a spinner  

[JasonGotaProblem]

Thank you everyone, great info.

It doesnt seem like stack height is gonna be a limiting factor. I just gotta find a small diameter Belleville.

And I guess it comes down to refinement. Like I say its fine as it is, but there's room for improvement. And that means I have a project.

[pjstevko]

Reach out to Fred as he's our DQ Jedi Master!!!!

[Midway Tommy]

Interestingly enough, ABU incorporated two forms of Bellevilles in their fulcrum drag reels, one of the best drags ever designed, as early as 1968, but the Belleville was a secondary asset to the spring loaded brake arm.

[handi2]

The Thrust washers I am referring to are just a flat washer.

Shimano has used the term exclusively on many of their reels

Keith

[JasonGotaProblem]

As I'm playing with this reel more I'm realizing that:

1. It's smoother than I realized in the low range.

2. There's definitely a spring in the drag cap already.

3. I can probably leave it alone.

4. I learned a lot from this thread anyway.