PENN JIGMASTER STAINLESS STEEL SLEEVES - COMPARISON . . .

[jurelometer]

Short answer:  the benefit of the stainless sleeve in these reels is mostly to keep the handle arm junction from rounding off.  If the sleeve fits on your bridge, you have a good sleeve. 

Long answer:

There has been a ton of stuff posted on dog-ratchet design, how Jigmasters fail under load, galvanic corrosion, aluminum stars, etc., so I won't repeat too much of it.

1. Regarding the "problem" with all aluminum stars: Thin/wide aluminum stars can be prone to cross threading.  Lots of aluminum drag knobs out there on other reels, but they tend to be thicker in the threaded section.  Galvanic corrosion can occur anywhere you have stainless in contact with aluminum and saltwater, which includes many spots on some reels, and also in the stainless sleeved aluminum star.

2: Dog ratchet design: when designing a dog/ratchet mechanism, there is a standard formula for the the ratchet tooth shape and dog post location.  In general, you want to minimize the travel of the dog, so flattening the top of the tooth helps here, but you have to leave enough tooth depth for the dog to fully engage. Try to squeeze in a few extra teeth and you may  end up with pointy teeth.  The points themselves are not so bad, but the ratchet teeth will have less meat behind them, which can mean less strength, especially if the dog does not drop all the way down due a misalignment from heavy load.

3. Tooth count: With a single dog, 8 to 10 teeth means a change from 45 to 36 degrees backplay. Better, but...  meh.  Double alternating dogs on the bridge has its own issues, but will make a more noticeable difference.

4.  Sleeve design considerations:  The aftermarket sleeve makers do not have much latitude in design, because the dog post location comes with  the bridge plate.  This controls the diameter of ratchet at the center of the tooth.  Lots of classic mechanical design textbooks describe this, but it is not rocket surgery.

Most aftermarket stainless sleeves do not require specific dogs.  Due to the previously mentioned limitations, the dog tooth shape is also controlled by the bridge design.  So the dogs that came with the bridge should work shape wise, and it is not clear to me that harder dogs are buying you much on this design. 

5.  What a stainless sleeve does for reel performance: In the gear sleeve designs like the Jigmaster series, the first thing to go under load is the handle arm to gear sleeve junction rounding on the brass sleeve.  Avoiding  this problem is the main benefit that you get from a stainless sleeve.  The next thing to go:  Under winding load, the helical gears drive themselves  apart  axially, which levers the top of the post supporting  the gear sleeve away from the spindle. Same thing can happen on the drag, but it takes more load. This misalignment can lead to dog failure or shredded gears, but a stainless sleeve is not buying you that much extra load capacity.   The reel design itself is the limitation.

6.  Support your local custom part markers.   I  am sure that there is better money to be made with those expensive CNC machines than cranking out parts for us at a very reasonable price point. I put stainless sleeves in the old Penns that I still fish, and am appreciative of the folk that make them.

-J

[Gfish]

I buy from both makers and the only determining factor is availability. Haven't noticed any performance differences. One thing though, best to get stainless dogs to go with a SS gear sleeve, the brass can get chewed-on.

[ez2cdave]

I buy from both makers and the only determining factor is availability. Haven't noticed any performance differences. One thing though, best to get stainless dogs to go with a SS gear sleeve, the brass can get chewed-on.

Where did you find Stainless Dogs for the Jigmaster ?  Neither Cortez nor PRO Challenger ( except for the double-dog Bridge ) make Dogs for the Jigmaster.

I can see how the Stainless Steel teeth on a Sleeve could cause higher wear on a Brass Dog.

Tight lines !

Dave F.

[ez2cdave]

Short answer:  the benefit of the stainless sleeve in these reels is mostly to keep the handle arm junction from rounding off.  If the sleeve fits on your bridge, you have a good sleeve. 

Long answer:

There has been a ton of stuff posted on dog-ratchet design, how Jigmasters fail under load, galvanic corrosion, aluminum stars, etc., so I won't repeat too much of it.

1. Regarding the "problem" with all aluminum stars: Thin/wide aluminum stars can be prone to cross threading.  Lots of aluminum drag knobs out there on other reels, but they tend to be thicker in the threaded section.  Galvanic corrosion can occur anywhere you have stainless in contact with aluminum and saltwater, which includes many spots on some reels, and also in the stainless sleeved aluminum star.

2: Dog ratchet design: when designing a dog/ratchet mechanism, there is a standard formula for the the ratchet tooth shape and dog post location.  In general, you want to minimize the travel of the dog, so flattening the top of the tooth helps here, but you have to leave enough tooth depth for the dog to fully engage. Try to squeeze in a few extra teeth and you may  end up with pointy teeth.  The points themselves are not so bad, but the ratchet teeth will have less meat behind them, which can mean less strength, especially if the dog does not drop all the way down due a misalignment from heavy load.

3. Tooth count: With a single dog, 8 to 10 teeth means a change from 45 to 36 degrees backplay. Better, but...  meh.  Double alternating dogs on the bridge has its own issues, but will make a more noticeable difference.

4.  Sleeve design considerations:  The aftermarket sleeve makers do not have much latitude in design, because the dog post location comes with  the bridge plate.  This controls the diameter of ratchet at the center of the tooth.  Lots of classic mechanical design textbooks describe this, but it is not rocket surgery.

Most aftermarket stainless sleeves do not require specific dogs.  Due to the previously mentioned limitations, the dog tooth shape is also controlled by the bridge design.  So the dogs that came with the bridge should work shape wise, and it is not clear to me that harder dogs are buying you much on this design. 

5.  What a stainless sleeve does for reel performance: In the gear sleeve designs like the Jigmaster series, the first thing to go under load is the handle arm to gear sleeve junction rounding on the brass sleeve.  Avoiding  this problem is the main benefit that you get from a stainless sleeve.  The next thing to go:  Under winding load, the helical gears drive themselves  apart  axially, which levers the top of the post supporting  the gear sleeve away from the spindle. Same thing can happen on the drag, but it takes more load. This misalignment can lead to dog failure or shredded gears, but a stainless sleeve is not buying you that much extra load capacity.   The reel design itself is the limitation.

6.  Support your local custom part markers.   I  am sure that there is better money to be made with those expensive CNC machines than cranking out parts for us at a very reasonable price point. I put stainless sleeves in the old Penns that I still fish, and am appreciative of the folk that make them.

-J

Very interesting information !

Tight Lines !

Dave F.

[jurelometer]

Interesting about the dog wear. I would be curious as to where on the  dog wear is happening.  If the dog springs are not too strong, there is very little pressure on the dog leg against the ratchet when winding, and we don't really do that many rotations per day. if the face of the dog where it meets the ratchet tooth face is being worn, there is an alignment issue, and one side is probably worn more than the other.  Probably no harm in a stainless dog.  My Penns have no dog wear, but I don't fish them that often. 

The dog spring just needs to be strong enough to swing the dog, which is next to nothing as long as there is not a bunch of grease to move out of the way.

[oldmanjoe]

I agree  , the only time i have seen dog wear is when the spring was to strong .  To the point you can hear it before you pull it apart .      Another was when the bridge screws were loose and the dog rode half on and half off of the gear sleeve  .

  Most gear sleeve damage is done because of improper torque of the handle screw .

[Shellbelly]

I agree with point #5 in the long answer and feel it is THE point. Given the original Penn design and material, this is the first weakness under load and is subject to many other factors.  #5 proves the SS sleeve is a benefit for frequent users as long as the handle is well built, fits correctly, and stays tight.

It still seems to start a series of subsequent improvements, which I will call Capitalism and God Bless THAT!!

[jurelometer]

Most gear sleeve damage is done because of improper torque of the handle screw .

I found this site because I was looking for way to improve the load capacity of my much-loved Accurate-ed Jigmaster 505.  I was tightening the star on a  dry carbon fiber waster stack with a pair of pliers and getting low 20's drag, but I was shredding the gear sleeve, and wearing down the gear teeth.  I don't think proper handle nut torque would have saved me.  Alan (Tani) gently informed me that I was pushing the reel beyond its limits, and that I should probably put a stainless gear sleeve on it and lose the pliers  

-J

[Shellbelly]

Good advice.  Too loose and too tight are bad mojo.

[Gfish]

I buy from both makers and the only determining factor is availability. Haven't noticed any performance differences. One thing though, best to get stainless dogs to go with a SS gear sleeve, the brass can get chewed-on.

Where did you find StainlesS Dogs for the Jigmaster ?  Neither Cortez nor PRO Challenger ( except for the double-dog Bridge ) make Dogs for the Jigmaster.

I can see how the Stainless Steel teeth on a Sleeve could cause higher wear on a Brass Dog.

Tight lines !

Dave F.

Actually, the 1st improvement I tried was the SS gear sleeve, while still using the old bridge+brass dog. That sucker was a grindin'. Perhaps it was in part the spring strength. Then I went to the double SS dog+bridge, much better.

[ez2cdave]

Hi Dave. I apologize for my comments. I wasn't intending to insult you or anyone else

 I will say that both these guys make quality parts and both stand behind the quality and workmanship 100%

Apology accepted ... All is well !

Tight Lines !

Dave F.

[ez2cdave]

Actually, the 1st improvement I tried was the SS gear sleeve, while still using the old bridge+brass dog. That sucker was a grindin'. Perhaps it was in part the spring strength. Then I went to the double SS dog+bridge, much better.

So, the SS Dogs were the ones integral to the Double-Dog Bridge and not individual replacement SS Doogs for the "stock" Bridge, right ?

Tight Lines !

Dave F.

[Gfish]

If I'm remembering right... Also the SS gear sets were hard on the old brass yokes. Shark Hunter Daron posted about that'n, so opened up my upgraded reel to see and oooppps!, godda change the yoke out.

[mhc]

I buy from both makers and the only determining factor is availability. Haven't noticed any performance differences. One thing though, best to get stainless dogs to go with a SS gear sleeve, the brass can get chewed-on.

Where did you find Stainless Dogs for the Jigmaster ?  Neither Cortez nor PRO Challenger ( except for the double-dog Bridge ) make Dogs for the Jigmaster.

I can see how the Stainless Steel teeth on a Sleeve could cause higher wear on a Brass Dog.

Tight lines !

Dave F.

Keta used to supply us with stainless dogs for a lot of the Penn reels, including stock jigmasters. He started around 2012 but I don't think he has access to water cutter anymore.

Mike

[jurelometer]

Gear/pinion pairs of dissimilar metals don't wear out very fast, and they are under much more frictional load.  The difference between a gear/pinion pair and a ratchet/dog pair is that the gears teeth are constantly rolling  against each other under (often significant) load and slipping and banging a bit depending on the amount of backlash designed in. A properly designed ratchet/dog setup has the dog sliding over the ratchet with only the spring tension contributing to load (sliding friction is a function of the how slippery the surfaces are -coefficient of friction- multiplied by the force pressing the objects together). If the dog tooth material was too soft, but the mechanism was sound, you should see a mushrooming of the dog face where it met the ratchet tooth.

Stronger dog material can be useful in less optimal mechanisms.  If you look at some of the aftermarket bridges with dual dogs, they had to go through some gyrations to fit the second dog without requiring the customer to grind out a new pocket on the sideplate.  Those dog-leg shaped dogs are a compromise in strength that can be somewhat mitigated by going with stronger materials.   Not saying that these setups won't work.  They just has to be strong enough that something else fails first. Every component will eventually fail with enough load.  You just don't want your customization to be the new weakest link.

 I would be curious to see photos of worn brass dogs on Jigmasters with stainless sleeves.

-J