Upgrading gear ratios and possible problems

[Breadfan]

So, Bryan got me thinking when he said (in the thread before this one) he was worried about stipping his gears if he upgraded his Abu to 5.3:1. I've also read about many users that have stripped gears fighting fish. I've upgraded all of my 6000 reels size I beach fish with (Rocket Reel, Omoto and Abus) to 6.3:1 and I have yet to strip the gears on any fish and I'm not sure why that is. I landed some really big sting rays (all by-catch), many 15-20lbs. At what point in the fight do the gears strip? When I have a big fish on, I pull up and reel on the way down. I never reel and pull at the same time. Is this why I don't have issues? I'm completely perplexed by this. I thought when I upgraded my reels, I'd be replacing stripped gears down the road, but it hasn't happened.

[Keta]

The metallurgy has as much to do with gear damage as tooth size.  A large tooth brass gear will fail sooner than a small tooth bronze gear.  SS comes in many alloys, some good for gears, some not.

[philaroman]

...At what point in the fight do the gears strip?  when you winch
When I have a big fish on, I pull up and reel on the way down. I never reel and pull at the same time. Is this why I don't have issues?  yeah, pretty much

[handi2]

I have never ruined gears on ANY type of reel.

The rod is used to pull the fish. The reel is just a tool to release and recover the fishing line.

You're back, the braking system, and the reels anti reverse system should be doing the grunt work.

Not the gears.

At least that's what I think 🤔

[PacRat]

Too much drag...too heavy line...and too much unyielding fish. At some point something is going to give. maybe even your AR dog or your rod.

Here's a scenario; something much bigger than you target species takes your line and is not impressed by your equipment. You have a couple of choices...cut the line, tighten the drag, or if your lucky the skipper chases with the boat so you can just tire the fish to the point of exhaustion and land it.

Let's say you're on a cattle boat so your choice is either cut the line or crank down the drag. Most of us will crank down the drag and hope for a miracle. (Besides that we likely have braid and a bunch of aftermarket parts). As the drag goes way beyond the design parameters of the reel, the weakest links become exposed. Frame flex, shaft flex, and gear stem-to-bridge flex. All this combined flex starts to stack and suddenly there is not enough gear tooth for the gears to remain engaged and if the process the tip of a tooth (or two) is seared off. This loss of material cascades and each time the gears re-align in the same spot, a little more gear tooth is lost. Not to mention that these fragments are now floating around in your gear train and will likely add to the damage.

50 years ago reels just blew-up. This is what first inspired Carl Newell to start upgrading Penns and the torch that many of us are still carrying. With that said; I'm reminded of a quote. "A good man knows his limitations." -Dirty Harry Callahan.

[Breadfan]

Well, I guess I've always adhered to using whatever line the rod and reel called for. It must be the reason I haven't destroyed any gears. I've been extra careful when hooking into something I hadn't planned for since going to the 6.3:1 gears, I know I'm pushing it but I need the fast retrieve.

[Cor]

I have never ruined gears on ANY type of reel.

The rod is used to pull the fish. The reel is just a tool to release and recover the fishing line.

You're back, the braking system, and the reels anti reverse system should be doing the grunt work.

Not the gears.

At least that's what I think 🤔

Spot on.

I catch very strong fish and usually use line stronger then the tackle is rated for and have never had a gear break a tooth.   Springs break and get stuck in to gears, AR dogs strip or break, pinion gears bend or break where they lock or engage the spool.   I can't think of anything else that has periodically caused a fatal breakage.   Some eccentrics distort or slip from wear.
OH yes, the Tranx's I now use exclusively, the level winding mechanism breaks and the thing then seizes solid.

There are probably some more parts that occasionally cause a serious malfunction, but most of those are the result of serious wear and tear and neglect.

[Swami805]

I think you can damage a gear when you're fishing in free spool and slam it into gear with a big fish running. It's not like a lever drag with the gears always messing, it's that moment when the pinion and main mess creating an instant load. That can break or strip a gear

[Shellbelly]

Since I use Penn Peers, I have an expectation of failure by design....idler gear.  Now, I've never had one fail in a fight but they do fail over time. 

Let's remember Breadfan is fishing from terra firma and has no captain.  Part of his fight includes walking back, forward, and sideways.  Those exercises can save your fishing gear as well.  He likely won't be able to lock his drag beyond the strength of his forefinger since he's literally dancing on sand with an unpredictable partner.  Sacrificing gear isn't an option in his case.

[jurelometer]

There have been a bunch of threads on gear shredding.

In terms of the original question, the gear ratio is providing leverage  to the fish. increase the gear ratio and the same pulling load puts more force on the teeth.  But if we are talking about increasing the ratio by 20% or so,  then this is only 20% more load.  Significant, but not extreme. 

There is a second thing that usually happens with a gear ratio change on a conventional reel:  If the gear ratio is going to increase, but the center distance is not (i.e, a drop in gear replacement) , then the pinion has to decrease in pitch circle diameter (roughly at the center of tooth height), while the main increases. 

If the reel was designed originally to support only the lower gear ratio,  the pinion is often so small that the only way to decrease the pitch circle diameter is to switch to smaller teeth.  Smaller teeth means a smaller tooth thickness, and less tolerance for shafts getting pushed out of alignment.

So "upgrading" to a higher gear ratio often causes this double whammy of increased leverage and weaker/alignment sensitive teeth. But if the reel was originally designed to support both ratios, hopefully this was already taken into consideration.

On winding vs taking drag, this gets a bit more complicated.  Whenever helical gears are turning, some of the load is being converted from radial to axial (along the shaft). 

Any misalignment cause the gears to push apart as the are also sliding away from each other, increasing misalignment, until with enough load and revolutions, you end up with the tip corner of a tooth on one gear (usually the pinion, if I remember correctly) riding along the edge of the tooth on the other gear). This is where the failure occurs. 

On a star drag, there is still load on the gear teeth when  the fish is pulling but taking no line, but this is not as stressful, as the gears are not turning.  When the fish is taking line, the gears are turning and the angle of the helical teeth causes the main gear to drive toward the bridgeplate and inward toward the pinion shaft/spindle, with the opposite happening when you are winding.  It  takes less force to lever the shafts out of alignment when winding, so this is where the failures usually occur.

We did a whole thread on this, and I think it is worth a read, but here is one post that explains helical gears and winding load failure:

https://alantani.com/index.php?msg=369742

The whole thread is worth a read in my opinion. 

Switching to a harder gear material does not attack the root problem, but it does buy you a bit more tooth shear strength when things are going south, which may or may not be enough.

Can't really contribute on Abus specifically. I only owned one Abu, a 6500, and it held up more than it should have on small tuna and even a sailfish, but drop jigging took a toll on it. That drop put load on all the parts involved in going in and out of gear, which was not as robust as the drive train.  Still have that reel around somewhere.  Last timed I spun it, it sounded a bit like an old hand crank pencil sharpener:) That Abu was a tough little reel for an old baitcaster.

-J

[Ron Jones]

I have never ruined gears on ANY type of reel.
The rod is used to pull the fish. The reel is just a tool to release and recover the fishing line.
You're back, the braking system, and the reels anti reverse system should be doing the grunt work.
Not the gears.
At least that's what I think 🤔

I am with Handi and Cor. The rod is your friend. As J pointed out, if the gears aren't turning the reel is healthier than turning under load. When you reel down to the fish, you are specifically reducing the load experienced by the gears, this keeps gears healthy and lets you do more with less.

The rod brings the fish in, the reel holds the line.
The Man

[borntofish]

I have never ruined gears on ANY type of reel.
The rod is used to pull the fish. The reel is just a tool to release and recover the fishing line.
You're back, the braking system, and the reels anti reverse system should be doing the grunt work.
Not the gears.
At least that's what I think 🤔

I am with Handi and Cor. The rod is your friend. As J pointed out, if the gears aren't turning the reel is healthier than turning under load. When you reel down to the fish, you are specifically reducing the load experienced by the gears, this keeps gears healthy and lets you do more with less.

The rod brings the fish in, the reel holds the line.
The Man

The trouble is though when you are fishing from a boat with braided line, and you are bringing up a fish from the depths. With the boat going up and down from the swell - if you pump and wind this can lead to a lot of pulled hooks. I just winch the fish straight up if they are not too large. I have never stripped any gears (they are usually 4 to 1 ratio or less).

[jurelometer]

I have never ruined gears on ANY type of reel.
The rod is used to pull the fish. The reel is just a tool to release and recover the fishing line.
You're back, the braking system, and the reels anti reverse system should be doing the grunt work.
Not the gears.
At least that's what I think 🤔

I am with Handi and Cor. The rod is your friend. As J pointed out, if the gears aren't turning the reel is healthier than turning under load. When you reel down to the fish, you are specifically reducing the load experienced by the gears, this keeps gears healthy and lets you do more with less.

The rod brings the fish in, the reel holds the line.
The Man

I think that there is more than one way to look at this.

While I agree that we have to take the capabilities of the reel into consideration, I don't think that being aggressive on winding load is the wrong way to fish. 

I was also taught to "use the rod, and not the reel".  I now think that this is more of a compromise to protect a reel than the optimal method to play fish in many (but not all) situations.

When you are pulling the fish head first toward you, you have a huge advantage.  Fish don't do swimming backwards well, so they either try to turn around (burns lots of energy for not much travel distance), or simply glide right toward you. The faster/farther you lower the rod to decrease winding load on your reel, the less force there is on the fish, making it easier for the fish to turn around and take your advantage away.

I am confident that learning to be much more aggressive on the wind has improved my results.  Less getting rocked, sawed off, or sharked.  Better for quickly landing and releasing fish.  Better for shortening the time to finish and be free to chase the next fish.  And we all know the adage "the longer the fight, the longer the odds". 

Being more aggressive does require being more picky on choice of reel. I think that we sometimes pay too much attention to drag load capacity and not enough to winding load capacity when evaluating reels. 

The trouble is though when you are fishing from a boat with braided line, and you are bringing up a fish from the depths. With the boat going up and down from the swell - if you pump and wind this can lead to a lot of pulled hooks. I just winch the fish straight up if they are not too large. I have never stripped any gears (they are usually 4 to 1 ratio or less).

A useful example.

-J

[Breadfan]

There is some very useful information here! I never thought about "winding load capacity", nor have I ever seen these figures listed alongside reels. Am I just not paying attention? My wife accuses me of "man looking" all the time so, maybe I am just missing that info on the box or website? Surely I would not miss it.

[JasonGotaProblem]

I've been reading this one with great interest. Not because I have anything to add, but i do have questions.
Why is it that bronze gears shred at 15-20# in a conventional but seem to hold up just fine at more than double that on a spinner? I'm sure tooth size and shape is a variable. But is it also because in a (modern) spinner the AR acts on the pinion and a conventional it acts on the handle?

Second, in order to cast decently the line has to be wound tightly and evenly. Pull up wind down doesn't seem to achieve that unless im pinching the line. Is that just the trade-off of protecting the gears? Max casting=min gear protection?