The chain of failure on an ambassadeur

[JasonGotaProblem]

We all seem to know pretty well the order of component replacement on a penn conventional if we wanna up the drag without a part failure. Do we have a similar work flow figured out for an abu? I'm pretty sure I don't wanna turn one of these into a winch. But what if i did? I see steel gears by rocket. Is anyone making a steel sleeve for these?

What's the most I could push, say a mostly stock 4500C4 with upgraded drags to before things start failing? What fails first?

[tincanary]

If you're wanting to build a tough as nails Abu; no bearings needed, polished spool bushings, polished worm gear end, ratchet anti-reverse, stainless gears from Rocket or PMR, chromed brass 4500C frame.  This wouldn't be very effective under 3/8, but if you're throwing big stuff, it would be the M1 Abrams in your collection.  Abu actually builds reels almost like this for pike fishermen in Europe; namely the 5600 Svartzonker and 5600JB.  They feature everything I said with the exception of the stainless gears.  They are pure bushing reels made to throw big baits for big pike.  They also have an instant anti-reverse bearing, but also an AR dog to serve as a backup in case the needle bearing decides to die.  The part I usually see failing in my experience are the gears, always the 6.3s and very seldom the 5.3s.  Musky fishermen where I am go through a set every couple of seasons or so, I usually swap them to 5.3s and hear nothing back.  No news is good news  Outside of that, I have seen very few failures aside from the anti-reverse bearing.

[JasonGotaProblem]

Thank you. Isnt the ARB acting between the handle and the sideplate? So if I get one with an ARB can I swap in a brakeplate assembly from one with a ratchet to have both, or are they not compatible?

I didn't consider the bearings as a weak point but I suspect 3x10x4 brass bushings can be sourced.

[day0ne]

if I get one with an ARB can I swap in a brakeplate assembly from one with a ratchet to have both, or are they not compatible?

I've done that on several reels.

[tincanary]

Thank you. Isnt the ARB acting between the handle and the sideplate? So if I get one with an ARB can I swap in a brakeplate assembly from one with a ratchet to have both, or are they not compatible?

I didn't consider the bearings as a weak point but I suspect 3x10x4 brass bushings can be sourced.

You can do that.  The best readily available brake plate is the one from the 6500 CS Pro Rocket Chrome, you can get it on eReplacement parts for like $30.  It has the post for the AR dog, so you can run both in conjunction.  https://www.ereplacementparts.com/brake-plt-6500csrocketchrome-p-1436558.html

[jurelometer]

Can't add anything to the invaluable first hand experience from tincanary, but can tackle this a bit from a mechanical engineering angle.

You sort of have to first pick a use case.

The failure chain is also a function of how the reel will be used.  Hucking those musky plugs is going to be a different load scenario than live baiting, which will be different from surf casting, which will be different from drop jigging.

I can't imagine ball bearing load to be an issue in any scenario.  A 4x10x4 stainless ball bearing is going to handle something north of 50 kilos of radial (pulling across the shaft) load.  No need to go to bushings purely for load capacity. Most reputable bearing suppliers list the specs, so you can check it out for the bearing size in question.

I am not a fan of one way clutch bearings, mostly because of reliability, and secondly for the lack of torque capacity to support larger loads.  But looking strictly at torque capacity, you might be fine in an ABU.  Look up the torque rating of a similar one-way bearing of the same size, and do the calculations for the gear ratio and spool radius for this reel to covert to max drag setting.  There is a thread somewhere here with a downloadable spreadsheet to do this.  You can even calculate the load on a dog from that spreadsheet, in case you want to get all engineery.

The musky guys can have this bigger is better mindset when it comes to throwing plugs, so casting and winding humongous plugs over and over is the definitive load test for that fishery since Musky and pike do not pull that hard/far, and not for long. I could see smaller softer gear teeth being worn faster from winding in this scenario. Flipping the reel into gear to stop these big plugs in  mid-flight is also stressful on the yoke assembly.  Larry has noted shredded yoke issues on Daiwa (Lexa?) reels in this fishery.  If it is a problem with the ABUs, maybe see if there is a more robust revision that fits your reel? 

The levelwind, yoke and handle engagement mechanisms have to be low resistance to function properly.  Hence these are lightweight mechanisms, often using nylon parts.   So I don't think we would ever get to the next levels of failure that we discuss in regular star drag conventional reels. 

I think you are kind of stuck with maybe removing the levelwind and a select few part upgrades.  If I was using these reels close to the original design intent, I would hesitate to mess with them too much.  Could easily end up going backward in performance for minimal gain in load capacity.

BTW, I am not hating on the ABU design.  The frame is particularly well designed, and the moving parts also seem to hit the sweet spot trading off casting performance, load capacity, and cost.  All designs are tradeoffs of some sort.  The better designs make the better tradeoffs.

-J

[tincanary]

Can't add anything to the invaluable first hand experience from tincanary, but can tackle this a bit from a mechanical engineering angle.

You sort of have to first pick a use case.

The failure chain is also a function of how the reel will be used.  Hucking those musky plugs is going to be a different load scenario than live baiting, which will be different from surf casting, which will be different from drop jigging.

I can't imagine ball bearing load to be an issue in any scenario.  A 4x10x4 stainless ball bearing is going to handle something north of 50 kilos of radial (pulling across the shaft) load.  No need to go to bushings purely for load capacity. Most reputable bearing suppliers list the specs, so you can check it out for the bearing size in question.

I am not a fan of one way clutch bearings, mostly because of reliability, and secondly for the lack of torque capacity to support larger loads.  But looking strictly at torque capacity, you might be fine in an ABU.  Look up the torque rating of a similar one-way bearing of the same size, and do the calculations for the gear ratio and spool radius for this reel to covert to max drag setting.  There is a thread somewhere here with a downloadable spreadsheet to do this.  You can even calculate the load on a dog from that spreadsheet, in case you want to get all engineery.

The musky guys can have this bigger is better mindset when it comes to throwing plugs, so casting and winding humongous plugs over and over is the definitive load test for that fishery since Musky and pike do not pull that hard/far, and not for long. I could see smaller softer gear teeth being worn faster from winding in this scenario. Flipping the reel into gear to stop these big plugs in  mid-flight is also stressful on the yoke assembly.  Larry has noted shredded yoke issues on Daiwa (Lexa?) reels in this fishery.  If it is a problem with the ABUs, maybe see if there is a more robust revision that fits your reel? 

The levelwind, yoke and handle engagement mechanisms have to be low resistance to function properly.  Hence these are lightweight mechanisms, often using nylon parts.   So I don't think we would ever get to the next levels of failure that we discuss in regular star drag conventional reels.

I think you are kind of stuck with maybe removing the levelwind and a select few part upgrades.  If I was using these reels close to the original design intent, I would hesitate to mess with them too much.  Could easily end up going backward in performance for minimal gain in load capacity.

BTW, I am not hating on the ABU design.  The frame is particularly well designed, and the moving parts also seem to hit the sweet spot trading off casting performance, load capacity, and cost.  All designs are tradeoffs of some sort.  The better designs make the better tradeoffs.

-J

Very well said.  The high resistance baits are what grinds up the finer gear teeth in the higher speed models.  The loss in retrieve speed borders on the line of not noticeable and slightly noticeable with the 5.3s according to the feedback I've received.  Granted, most of my personal musky fishing experience came via trolling, so casting lures is something I'm not too familiar with like Larry would be.

[borntofish]

If you're wanting to build a tough as nails Abu; no bearings needed, polished spool bushings, polished worm gear end, ratchet anti-reverse, stainless gears from Rocket or PMR, chromed brass 4500C frame.

Could you elaborate a bit more on 'ratchet anti reverse'?

[tincanary]

Could you elaborate a bit more on 'ratchet anti reverse'?

It uses an anti reverse dog instead of the needles bearing.  When the handle goes backwards, the dog catches on the ratchet gear of the driveshaft.

[JasonGotaProblem]

Bob, what about the brake plate from a good ol' 5500C? I ask because i happen to have one laying around.

And supposing I did these things (carbon drag, steel main, backup AR, replace bushings with bearings, maybe delete the levelwind) what would be the max useable drag one could get from these mods? Phrased differently what's the max winding load a reel of this configuration could handle?

Again I'm not necessarily planning such an aggressive winch build, there's other reels already in my collection better suited for this type of job. I just find evaluating the extreme cases to be a valid way to better understand the equipment.

[pointbob]

Bob, what about the brake plate from a good ol' 5500C? I ask because i happen to have one laying around.

And supposing I did these things (carbon drag, steel main, backup AR, replace bushings with bearings, maybe delete the levelwind) what would be the max useable drag one could get from these mods? Phrased differently what's the max winding load a reel of this configuration could handle?

Again I'm not necessarily planning such an aggressive winch build, there's other reels already in my collection better suited for this type of job. I just find evaluating the extreme cases to be a valid way to better understand the equipment.

not sure if it answers your question; but anecdotally I've fought several +40lb salmon with 5500cs.

[borntofish]

Could you elaborate a bit more on 'ratchet anti reverse'?

It uses an anti reverse dog instead of the needles bearing.  When the handle goes backwards, the dog catches on the ratchet gear of the driveshaft.

OK, but that is standard. When you said build, I thought you were improving the system. Also, don't the models with ant reverse bearings have the ratchet anti reverse as well? How can you go wrong with both systems? By the way I have problems with a couple of my ABU with the ratchet anti reverse slipping - despite fitting new pawls. 

[tincanary]

Could you elaborate a bit more on 'ratchet anti reverse'?

It uses an anti reverse dog instead of the needles bearing.  When the handle goes backwards, the dog catches on the ratchet gear of the driveshaft.

OK, but that is standard. When you said build, I thought you were improving the system. Also, don't the models with ant reverse bearings have the ratchet anti reverse as well? How can you go wrong with both systems? By the way I have problems with a couple of my ABU with the ratchet anti reverse slipping - despite fitting new pawls. 

Very few come with both types of anti reverse, it's either one or the other unless you get a 6500 BST or one of the European pike reels.

[jurelometer]

And supposing I did these things (carbon drag, steel main, backup AR, replace bushings with bearings, maybe delete the levelwind) what would be the max usable drag one could get from these mods? Phrased differently what's the max winding load a reel of this configuration could handle?

To close out this bushing vs. bearing thing,  at similar dimensions with typical materials, a bushing will handle more radial load than a bearing, but is more susceptible to wear under misalignment.  The choice makes no difference for this load improvement exercise.

In terms of load, folks on other forums claim  to get anywhere from 12 to 20 lbs (I don't believe it) max drag on that 5500/6500 platform. I would say something more like 5  or 6 lbs max drag, 2 lbs winding load for anything that is going to take a lot of line.  Try winding a. 2 lb weight off the floor, especially with the double knob handle.  It is a lot more winding load that most folks use. 

It looks like pinion failure and yoke failure(probably stopping casts short or throwing into gear when live baiting), are the most common issues, a few bent spindles reported here and there.  A low ratio stainless gear set might help the pinion issue, but it might also be tougher on the yoke.  No practical way to get out of the yoke issue

I have set a 6500 to 6 lbs and never gotten close to the arbor with small tuna and 20 lb mono. A sailfish nearly emptied it, but we ran it down.  Reel still worked fine, but if I fished it like that daily, it would probably have had  a short life.

For the price of a couple upgrade parts, you could probably find a Daiwa SL20SH, and still be fishing vintage gear roughly the same capacity as a 6500, but you would have a much better reel from a strength perspective, and  the unmolested ABU would continue to be better for tossing small jigs accurately to laid up snook.

If I was going to molest an ABU,  I would probably go in the direction of improving casting attributes  vs. improving load.  As a motorcycle guy, I would say it is analgous to  making a street bike a better street bike, not trying to turn it into a dirt bike.

Although I did turn a dirt bike into a street bike once... Glass houses and all

-J

[handi2]

Can't add anything to the invaluable first hand experience from tincanary, but can tackle this a bit from a mechanical engineering angle.

You sort of have to first pick a use case.

The failure chain is also a function of how the reel will be used.  Hucking those musky plugs is going to be a different load scenario than live baiting, which will be different from surf casting, which will be different from drop jigging.

I can't imagine ball bearing load to be an issue in any scenario.  A 4x10x4 stainless ball bearing is going to handle something north of 50 kilos of radial (pulling across the shaft) load.  No need to go to bushings purely for load capacity. Most reputable bearing suppliers list the specs, so you can check it out for the bearing size in question.

I am not a fan of one way clutch bearings, mostly because of reliability, and secondly for the lack of torque capacity to support larger loads.  But looking strictly at torque capacity, you might be fine in an ABU.  Look up the torque rating of a similar one-way bearing of the same size, and do the calculations for the gear ratio and spool radius for this reel to covert to max drag setting.  There is a thread somewhere here with a downloadable spreadsheet to do this.  You can even calculate the load on a dog from that spreadsheet, in case you want to get all engineery.

The musky guys can have this bigger is better mindset when it comes to throwing plugs, so casting and winding humongous plugs over and over is the definitive load test for that fishery since Musky and pike do not pull that hard/far, and not for long. I could see smaller softer gear teeth being worn faster from winding in this scenario. Flipping the reel into gear to stop these big plugs in  mid-flight is also stressful on the yoke assembly.  Larry has noted shredded yoke issues on Daiwa (Lexa?) reels in this fishery.  If it is a problem with the ABUs, maybe see if there is a more robust revision that fits your reel? 

The levelwind, yoke and handle engagement mechanisms have to be low resistance to function properly.  Hence these are lightweight mechanisms, often using nylon parts.   So I don't think we would ever get to the next levels of failure that we discuss in regular star drag conventional reels.

I think you are kind of stuck with maybe removing the levelwind and a select few part upgrades.  If I was using these reels close to the original design intent, I would hesitate to mess with them too much.  Could easily end up going backward in performance for minimal gain in load capacity.

BTW, I am not hating on the ABU design.  The frame is particularly well designed, and the moving parts also seem to hit the sweet spot trading off casting performance, load capacity, and cost.  All designs are tradeoffs of some sort.  The better designs make the better tradeoffs.

-J

J strikes again!