Really bad pinion rub. Why?

[JasonGotaProblem]

I have a reel that Keith gave me that is basically only penn screws and springs, the rest aftermarket. Freespool has always been abysmal, like 5 seconds tops. Last night I decided to go in and try to work on it. As it arrived it had a dura-drag setup. Never seen that for a jigmaster, but I digress. I swapped it for the PC 5:1 gear set. Figured maybe it would be better with a different pinion, but frankly i just wanted it faster either way. No improvement. So i tried the routine I learned from user Pacrat and removed the bridge and put the reel together with just spool and frame, to see what freespool should be like with zero pinion rub. Got a good 25 second free spool. Not crazy but given the magnet i got in there that's pretty acceptable, and now I know my target range.

Reel has an aftermarket double dog bridge, and what looks like an aftermarket stainless yoke.

So where do I start?

[Swami805]

I think pro challenger made the gear set. Pretty common to have something that needs a tweak or two to get everything working right with all those upgrades. Sometimes the ears on the yoke don't line up and you need to bend them a little. Try a stock yoke and see if that's it before you start bending.
Can be pretty frustrating, if it gets that way put it aside for a day and come back to it.

[PacRat]

I think this is really common with highly modified Jigmasters...sort of what I call 'pinion tilt'. With a stock JM, you don't have this issue because that little collar at the tip of the bushing rides inside the counter-bore at the end of the pinion gear. This keep everything lined up pretty good for what it was designed to do...chucking jigs.

Sal and I discussed this a lot and his best advice was to polish both the shaft and the inside of the pinion gear, then run just a tiny drop of oil to prevent rust and possibly reduce a little friction.

We also discussed messing around with the springs, yoke, and especially the eccentric jack in an attempt to keep the pinion gear parallel to the shaft when in freespool. It's not as easy as it sounds. I broke the tab off a stainless jack trying to tweak the tabs. I mostly went back to brass after that.

You can get everything dialed in without the drive train and you will have a baseline of the possibilities. Then put your guts back in and tweak away for maximum freespool.

Your needs will vary depending on what your casting and how far you need to cast. Out here on the West Coast, I use my Jigmasters for tossing jigs or lead. But when fly-lining pin-head anchovies, I grab a Newell with light line.

I know it's fun to watch those 'long freespool' videos but it's mostly for bragging rights and may not make that much difference on the water. Are you timing your freespool with a full spool? Mass makes a difference. A trick I use to time is to spin consistently. If I'm just using my thumb to spin the spool, I'm likely somewhere in the middle of the road and it can vary from spin to spin. So I like to max out the spin by winding a cord around the spool and giving it a spin like a toy top. This always gives you a longer spin time and it's more consistent from spin to spin.

[Brewcrafter]

Jason - There are other threads on this; but I will revisit.  The minute you said the only original parts are the screws and springs, that sort of dictated the rest.  So, first and foremost:
Many of the aftermarket parts available today to modify old reels, and many produced by members of this community, are first rate, high quality improvements on vintage reels.  There, I need to get that out up front.
Keep also in mind the production tolerances for "back in the day" when these reels were originally designed and built.  We are not talking aerospace levels of tolerances.  A typical "+/-" dimension that may mean nothing on a production reel, over a HUGE production run with many parts runs, over decades of production, can actually be significant.
Tolerance stackup.  Hit the max dimension on one thing, and the min on another, then add a third, forth, fifth aftermarket component - now they may not like to play nice together.
Hence blueprinting.  In the engine world it is not enough to bolt together components, the person that bolts together/measures/verifies is going to be the one that gets the results, even with the same components as the next guy.
Alan, Fred and Tommy to name just a few are masters at Blueprinting.  I will say that with my "custom" builds, every one of them would have "worked" had I simply thrown the parts together.  I will also say, that while they were all very high quality parts from reputable manufacturers, these things were going into 50 year old reels, and after some attention my custom builds now operate flawlessly (and it was enjoyable to get it there).
Never having been exposed to his work I am NOT slamming on Keith - a lot of folks I respect have nothing but great things to say so that is not where I am going.  What I am suggesting is that as you are swapping/introducing components that is a good time to break out the calipers, micrometer, and magnifier and look at what is going on.  Take notes on everything (this gear was 3.XXX, and the replacement was 3.XXY type stuff).
You have been doing this awhile so I am confident that you will quickly find/solve this and get that Jiggy running smooth. - john

[foakes]

One of the issues that come up often when upgrading these Penns —-

Like John said —- the tolerances are tight when mixing old parts, new parts, partially new parts, etc.

Not all of the parts like to play well together.

When I did a lot of Penn upgrades many years ago —- I was taught some things by a guy we all know of, and another local guy who just did mostly Salt-Water reels — and a lot of upgrades.

One guy was Carl Newell, who made upgraded parts for Penn reels.

The other guy was Joel Popejoy, a retired Police Detective who did a lot of upgrades on Penns for himself and his clients who did dozens of long-range trips on the American Angler.

Both Carl & Joel told me that all that was needed on these Penns —- such as "99ing" a Jigmaster —- was a solid frame such as an Accurate (I used lots of those), a power handle properly tightened, upgraded drags, Newell Bearings, SS sleeve, and an aluminum one-piece spool.

The original sideplates stayed in place.

If going further, with full sideplates and frames and super drag stacks —- there would be "adjustments" required.

It seems we have 3 choices —-

Do a basic upgrade with a solid frame, aluminum spool, upgraded drags, SS sleeve, power crank, and better bearings.

Or, do a full kit with matching sideplates, frame, spool, and components manufactured by someone like Tom at Cortez.

Or, just upgrade the drags, spool, sleeve, and crank.

Nothing wrong with tweaking these reels until we get the bugs out of our builds —- but each one becomes a different challenge.

The more experience we get both on the bench and on the water with these upgrades —- the easier it is to understand and recognize the little tweaks that are relatively simple and quick.

That is one reason why Alan Chui, owner of Pro-Challenger — would send many prototypes to Sal for testing and tweaking.  Sal knew how to make the minor adjustments necessary — because he knew exactly how each part should interact with other parts.

Carl & Joel & Sal are gone now —- but they had good advice for me.

Best, Fred

[Gfish]

25 sec. Free spool with no guts is ok. I'd start with the pinion being spun on the spool shaft, does it spin well? Next try(if ya got spare parts or a reel you can dissemble) substituting in a different yolk and then a different Eccentric jack. These can cause Pacrat's "pinion tilt" if tweaked.

[JasonGotaProblem]

So I put it in gear, dial the drag back to zero, and give it a spin. I get about 15 seconds. This is getting interesting. I'm going back in tonight. 

[Maxed Out]

 Try this: put shift lever in gear and slowly move the lever towards Freespool, checking at which point is the pinion disengaged. If it happens near the halfway point, then the jack tabs are bent too far out. Hold your lever at that very point and check Freespool. Try a stock jack

[Crab Pot]

Both Carl & Joel told me that all that was needed on these Penns —- such as "99ing" a Jigmaster —- was a solid frame such as an Accurate (I used lots of those), a power handle properly tightened, upgraded drags, Newell Bearings, SS sleeve, and an aluminum one-piece spool.

Fred,

Is there a torque to properly secure a power handle?

Thanks,

Steve 


 

[foakes]

Both Carl & Joel told me that all that was needed on these Penns —- such as "99ing" a Jigmaster —- was a solid frame such as an Accurate (I used lots of those), a power handle properly tightened, upgraded drags, Newell Bearings, SS sleeve, and an aluminum one-piece spool.

Fred,

Is there a torque to properly secure a power handle?

Thanks,

Steve 

Probably is, Steve —-

I just really snug them up about 1/8th turn past tight.

Best, Fred

[JasonGotaProblem]

Swapped in factory brass yoke and Jack and now it's way better.

[ExcessiveAngler]

Nice job brother!
Another pretty blue reel, huh?
That had plenty of free spool spin time!
Having line on the spool, makes a huge difference!
What do you have a static mag in there?

[JasonGotaProblem]

Nice job brother!
Another pretty blue reel, huh?
That had plenty of free spool spin time!
Having line on the spool, makes a huge difference!
What do you have a static mag in there?

Yeah i wont hesitate to blast a hole in an abu sideplate because i have like 10+ spares. There's not a snowballs chance in hell I'm taking a drill to this thing. I still plan to get this thing engraved in Keith's memory. This reel is never for sale. But i did 5min epoxy a fat rare earth magnet in there. I can cast just fine without a magnet but I don't wanna be the goofy looking dude with a ratnest on a fancy reel.

[steelfish]

nice job Jason, there is a special feeling for personal victories like this

[Maxed Out]

 Jason, glad you figured it out all on your own.

 Also, Penn specs says tighten the handle nut snug and then go to the next slot for the set screw. If you over-tighten, you could bend the gear sleeve pin and that can cause major issues internally