Langley Spinflo 820GC

[Brewcrafter]

Had an oldie hit the bench today that was gifted to me by a childhood friend that he found in some stuff that belonged to his Dad.  Hoping for info.  My goal with this reel is just to clean it up, getting to working "almost like new" condition and then in all seriousness I will either send it back to him or it will most likely get used once or twice and become a "shelfie".  Searched for info on Langley and found Dennis from Second Chance did a nice little general history overview. 
Here is what I have, a very basically solid reel.  The parts I am unsure on mostly are the anti-reverse dog.  There were NO springs of any type, and nothing "wandering" inside the reel EXCEPT I did find several random dry rotted bits of rubber behind the rotor, which you can see in the rotor photo next to it and also next to the Knipex in the overall photo.  Stay with me on this, because:
The bail had a seriously deteriorated piece of rubber on the end of it that clearly acted as a bail stop to cushion the bail closing - makes sense....where things got confusing for me:
The anti-reverse was totally non-functional.  You can see one dog behind the rotor, which would optimally engage with a cast lug on the frame at 360 degree intervals.  When I disassembled, there were numerous small chunks of dry-rotted rubber similar to the bail bumper trapped behind the rotor.  So:
observations  I am guesstimating knowing the history of the company and the provenance of where I got it that this was probably a 1950's reel?  It does say "patent pending".  While younger folks may shake their heads, the pinion in this reel appears to be plastic/nylon, and the clicker pawl (functional) is made of the same material.  But at that time frame in history plastics and nylon were the new "wonder products".  (I'm old enough to remember when TV dinners came in ALUMINUM trays and you didn't need to worry about putting them in the microwave, the "Radarrange" was decades away from being created.  Don't forget to peel the aluminum foil back from the crumble dessert 10 minutes before the end so it gets crispy  )  Anyhow, looking behind the rotor you see the dog, the confusing part:
No spring.  Was Langley using rubber bits as cheap high-tech (at the time) springs?
Also, it appears there are 4 different locations that the dog could be placed.  Based on letters on the casting and the design of the reel, I am "guessing" that they designed this to be both a right hand and left hand design (there is an L cast in the rotor by one of the dog mounts) but still the 4 mounting locations give me cause to wonder.
Also can anyone of the more experienced Ohana fill in with more history/background? 
Thanks!!!!! - john

[Midway Tommy]

The 820GC came out in 1959. In 1962 Langley sold their reel manufacturing division to Zebco. The A/R is more or less gravity operated. It's been awhile so I need to check my old photos & notes to remember the exact setup, but I've worked on a couple of the 820s. Is there a spring that fits in a groove on the rotor tube?

[Brewcrafter]

Followup - Now that I have hit the assemblies with IPA (the topical sanitizer, not the beverage ) I note a couple more clues:
The current dog location appears to have plastic or rubber sleeves on the limiting posts that govern and cushion the swing of the dog.
The locations all have inscriptions in the rotor:
The current position of the dog is "BR" (guessing that is something "right").  the one immediately adjacent to it is "BL" (something Left).  The other two locations are inscribed "MR" and "ML", and in addtion to being obviously at different clockings of the rotor, the positions of the limiting pins in those locations indicates to me that the dog would have a more aggressive pivot angle, I am just not yet sure why.  And obviously the dog itself, while asymmetrical, can clearly be flipped over depending on rotation.  Hmmmm.
And that plastic click pawl?  Looking closer at it can be placed at three locations on the back of the spool, all about 120 degrees different.  Not sure how that relates, but I feel sure they designed something here that could be assemble several different ways depending on outcome....

[Brewcrafter]

Tommy - There was a circlip behind the pinion that trapped the entire rotor and pinion gear assemble that once removed, allowed it to be extracted.  The shaft was retained by a cotter-key that went through the oscillation block and shaft. - john

[Brewcrafter]

Hmmm.  Thanks for the help Tommy, and I apologize because I know my photos are blurry enough to look like cold war spy photos.  In the assemble photo with the rotor, the left side of the dog is flat - and clearly can engaged the lug on the frame, where on the right it is more rounded to ride over the lug during rotation.  The threaded centerpin pivot is pressed into the dog and can be pushed out and flipped to the other side.  On the side of the dog on the outboard there are two notches, that to a Penn person would say "a spring goes here" and I removed the dog thinking there might be the remains of a clock spring underneath, but no such luck.  I was not able to find a press notch for a plastic spring.  An innertube is one of my "goto" around here, so that is my first thought for the bail bumper.  Still not sure on the dog. - john

[Midway Tommy]

So you jogged my memory. The dawg is not asymmetrical. If you look closely at it one side has a slot. There was a nylon/plastic flap pinched into that groove that activates the A/R. You have to carefully spread that slot, reinstall the correct size flap and repinch it. I made replacement flaps out of a piece of inner tube because that was the only flexible material I had and it worked just fine.

Here's a couple of pics of a Zebco 850. The setup on yours should be somewhat similar. I'll dig out a Langley 820 & double check the setup.

[foakes]

Hi John —-

Sounds like between you and Tom —- you are pretty well set.

I have quite a few of the Langley's & Zebco's.

Glad to send you an excellent complete one in case you need to rob any parts or do comparisons.

Also have an original owners manual, and the correct wrench.

All no charge & I will cover the shipping.

Best, Fred

[oldmanjoe]

  What kind of cheaters is this , I like the scale reference 

[Midway Tommy]

OK, thanks for making me service a reel that's been sitting in a tote for 15 years.    I opened it up & took it apart so I figured I as long as I had it that far I might as well clean it up completely. 

The 822 doesn't have that dawg fly spring like the 850. The A/R works by centrifugal force and the activator stud at the bottom of the front side of the body. If you post a photo of the front of the body you can see activator bump out. You will need to make a tab/flap and install it in the front groove in the side of the brass dawg. If you have a magnifying glass or jewelers loop you will be able to see where it goes. That's where I used a piece of inner tube. It has to be sized such that it doesn't bind and passes the activator easily when cranking forward but catches the activator and throws the dawg out when reeled in reverse. Some guys, like Paul Roberts, removed that tab because they didn't like not having the option to back reel, but on most of those old Langleys and Zebcos the tab has disintegrated long ago.       

[Brewcrafter]

Folks like Tommy and Fred are why this forum is the best.  Tommy, this is the front view of the frame, differs a little from what you posted but I think if I understand you correctly that the indents on my reel in the anti-reverse dog had a rubber component that is no longer there; which would totally make sense as I found rubber chunks under the rotor that were not related to the bail bumper (which crumbled in my hands).
I think knowing that and with Tommy's suggestion I can do some "innertube magic"?
Fred - Thank you so much for the offer, but it sounds like I can fab some soft parts to make this one work now that I actually understand how it originally functioned.  I will keep everyone posted here until this reel is back together.
Joe - That is a photo taken through my trusty 10x loupe from my printing days.  Always in its's pouch on the right corner of my bench - I use it a lot more than I did back then, and a lot when inspecting reel parts... - john

[Brewcrafter]

And on a side note; here is the "drag stack".  I'm not going to waste Dawn's time and call for Carbontex washers  but there are things to be learned.  Basically the drag for this reel is plastic/nylon and the drag tension is controlled by pressing the coil spring on the spool.  Not a bad model considering when this was developed!  I also respect the construction of the spool - Tommy or Fred can probably confirm but it appears also to be nylon like many of the other plastic components (the pinion gear!).  Note the holes in the front face; I am guessing the that folks that engineered this reel were not concerned about weight, but more about letting the commonly available lines of the time "breathe".  Nice little extra touch that some late 1940's engineer felt was important.
On projects like this I almost more enjoy the thought of "tell me what you have seen and been through" and "why did they build it this way?" more than just making parts work again.  Again, major thanks to Tommy and Fred, and I will share with everyone what happens in the next step.

[Midway Tommy]

John,
The studs are a little different shape because the 850 has that looped trip wire that guides and activates the dawg. The design is similar but tip of wire fits in the slot in the dawg so when the crank is reversed the dawg flips out to hit the stud. The 822 uses the tab/flap rather than the spring to flip the dawg. Fabricating a new tab/flap is pretty much standard procedure on these old Langleys & Zebcos, especially since parts are obsolete for these things. Even when they're in like new condition the original piece has usually deteriorated. I don't think I have ever come across one of these styles from this circa where the tab hasn't degraded.

BTW, the photo with the notes does not actually pertain to the 850. It was originally done to show someone how those reels with the tab/flap was set up. I used that reel as a reference because I didn't have a photo of the style like that used in the 822. I hope that didn't confuse you too much. 

In addition, I opened up another one of my 822s, a GB. While old and broken off, the the portion of the tab/flap that sticks outside the dawg was still in one piece and curled up behind the rotor. It is still flexible enough to flatten out so I measured it and it was 1/8" wide and should be 3/8" to 7/16" long, which includes the portion that goes in the slot in the dawg.   

[Brewcrafter]

As promised, photos of the completion.  Major thanks again to Tommy and Fred for the guidance.  Here is how it went down, pretty standard on disassy/cleaning, the trick being the abovementioned anti-reverse feature that I never would have figured out without wiser heads.  After cleaning the remains of the old anti-reverse out of the dog slot, into the vise (you can see light shining though it)
Cut a suitable piece of innertube, now how to get it in the slot?  Didn't trust myself to physically spread/compress the metal of the dog lest I permanently damage the part, but with a little ingenuity stretched the innertube so that the material became thinner, then worked it into the slot.  Once releasing the tension the rubber seemed pretty solidly gripped in the dog.


Trimmed the inserted rubber down to the specs provided by Tommy; here is the finished part, alone and installed:



Finished reel is assembled and works as it should!  Now, clearly this reel has it's limitations (plastic drag  ) but I couldn't resist, found the tail end of a spool of 4# mono, and planning to take this up into the mountains to terrorize some fall bluegill just to say it did!  thanks again to everyone! - john

[foakes]

Nice work, John!

Best, Fred

[Midway Tommy]

Good for you, John!    I usually slip a straight bladed screw driver into the slot and work it back & forth just enough to widen the slot so the rubber will slide in and then squeeze it down with pliers just enough to crimp it onto the tab. It's always worked for me but a guy has to be careful not to get too aggressive.

Well done!