Question about using a Fuji LC guide for a 5ft Spinning Jigging rod

[steelfish]

Hey guys, Im thinking about using a size 20 LC fuji guide as striper guide on a Spinning rod, this guide is used on large spinning Surf rods with a lot of success, I remember reading Jeri (Surf fishing rod building Jedi) using  2 LC fuji guides on a light surf rod and the rest were single foot guides for a KR concept, I have a short 5'2" OTI  500gr fathom blade blank that I want to build as Spinning rod for my Quatum Cabo 60 and/or the Shimano Stradic 8000FJ.
My initial idea was to go with the usual guide train with fuji KW guides 30, 16, 12, 10, 10 (or mayve use size 8,8), since I currently don't have a kw 30 size guide and I happen to have a 20LC guide I taped that LC guide to the blank along with the rest of Kw guide and the guide train looks and feels pretty good (I haven't tested casting with that setup because vertical jigging don't involve casting    ).

guide train with 20LC guide and the rest KW guides



guide train with all Kw guides (the one on this guide train is a 25KW size, if I go this way I will be using a guide bit taller than this one, the 30kw size)


difference in LC guide and Kw guide, one is 20LC and 25Kw, just to have a visual comparo of the two guides




So far, I haven't seen any Vertical jigging rod with a 20LC fuji guide as 1st guide anywhere, but I found a picture of a Factory OTI G3 jigging spinning rod with the big 40 MN guide reversed  , also saw an Okuma Metaloid vertical jigging spinning rod with the same 40 MN reversed guide, the rest of the factory spinning rods or custom rods normally use KW guides or fuji MN guides oriented the normal way.

OTI factiry vertical jigging rod




Okuma Metaloid Vertical jigging rod




so, what do you guys say, go with the LC guide and the rest KW or use all KW guides ?
since there is no casting involved on a short 5.2ft heavy jigging rod pretty much there will be not much difference but Im not totally sure, so, if anyone has an opinion why use one or the other way I'm all ears.

Im not looking to save weight on this OTI fathom blade 500gr custom rod since is a HD 120lb blank and pretty much I'll be using a medium size (kind of heavy) spinning reel on it and medium/heavy jigs.

[ExcessiveAngler]

The KW layout, looks more uniform and much better to me Alex!
I am a lover of LC guides though lol!
What if if you went all LC's ?
What's up buddy by the way lol!

[JasonGotaProblem]

All of my questions of how it would work would be answered by taping it on and lifting something. Does it seem like a smaller stripper guide puts too much stress on that one guide? That's what I'd be looking for.

[jurelometer]

Agree with Jason.  You are not optimizing for casting, so you want to optimize for loading the rod.  Spinning rods tend to have guide height and placement that are not optimal  for loading the bottom half of the blank for fighting fish.

You also  might want to play with moving the guide closer to the butt.

-J

[steelfish]

The KW layout, looks more uniform and much better to me Alex!
I am a lover of LC guides though lol!
What if if you went all LC's ?
What's up buddy by the way lol!

yep, KW guidetrain looks more uniform, maybe thats why is one of the most used options on quality factory rods, going with all Fuji LC guides on short rods may affect the flexibility and action of the rod, specially being a short and very flexible jigging rod, the feet of a LC guide are pretty separated that plus the guides having a thick frame and being sturdy will put a long not-flexible nod on the blank where every guide sits (thats my theory), that dont affect on long surf rods when its not uncommon to see rods using all LC guides even on the small runners.

All of my questions of how it would work would be answered by taping it on and lifting something. Does it seem like a smaller stripper guide puts too much stress on that one guide? That's what I'd be looking for.

well yes, I understand you would like to see the curve on the rod to check the guidetrain and stress points on the blank on a dead weight lifting test but Im still far from that on this rod, I just got that blank few days ago and taped some KW guides on it to check if I have a complete set on hand for it, then I just switched the Kw stripper guide for a LC guide and looked like it would also work on this short rod,  but maybe just maybe I overthinking it (not the 1st time) and looking for technical answers on my question while probably the real answer is that 95% of persons will buy the fishing rod that looks more natural and uniform also, to be honest I dont know if the 20LC guide add any direct advantage with the tall and thick frame and small eye compared to a normal 30KW guide and thats mostly what brought me to ask it  

A lifting test on jigging spinning rods will help to determinate just the best guide spacing on this rod plus the size of the guides but not the style/model of guides.

[jurelometer]

The style of guide and ring diameter should not have much of a direct effect on load distribution.  What matters is the location on the blank and how far the line contact point (far inside end of the ring) is from the blank. Guide geometry and ring size is mostly a casting performance consideration.

If you can get the lower half of the rod to load well at a lower fighting angle, you will be able to lift a big fish better.  Imagine trying to fight a fish with only the top three guides installed. You want the opposite effect.

Any vertical jigging spinning rod guide layout is going to be a challenge.  For optimizing uniform loading on a bendy blank, you want lots of guides close to the blank, with the bottom guide as close to the reel seat as practical. Not too tricky with a conventional reel. But the line leaves the spinning reel too far from the blank.  The best loading layout might also end up not very aesthetically pleasing.

I'm curious to see what you decide is the best compromise.


-J

[boon]

Hrm. I think the LC guide works on surf rods because it's along way from the reel so the coils coming off have time/space to straighten out. I think with a short jig rod you would have line slapping on the smaller ring/frame of the LC. Obviously you're not casting but with a 500g jig that line is still coming off the reel pretty fast.
Every single one of my spin jig rods has a KW stripper guide, larger on the heavier rods where it's expected you might use a 20000-size reel.

[steelfish]

...  The best loading layout might also end up not very aesthetically pleasing.

Agree, just like the KR concept, proven to be a great guide setup for casting but some guys dont like the way the guides arranged compared to the traditional cone guide setup

Any vertical jigging spinning rod guide layout is going to be a challenge.  For optimizing uniform loading on a bendy blank, you want lots of guides close to the blank

I still dont know if it will work but my idea is to use a "kind of" Kr concept for the guide train, go big with the 1st guide and reduce drastically the cone (or the size of the next two guides) to finish with some small guides close to the blank, hence the 1st guidetrain picture with the LC20, Kw 12 and the rest kw10 till the tip, I might go with a #8 kw instead of 4 #10, that depends on the Blank curve and dead weight test and of course, I also might change the 20LC for a 30Kw to test both setups

[jurelometer]

Hrm. I think the LC guide works on surf rods because it's along way from the reel so the coils coming off have time/space to straighten out. I think with a short jig rod you would have line slapping on the smaller ring/frame of the LC. Obviously you're not casting but with a 500g jig that line is still coming off the reel pretty fast.
Every single one of my spin jig rods has a KW stripper guide, larger on the heavier rods where it's expected you might use a 20000-size reel.

Interesting.  If line slap was an concern, it seems strange to have reversed the first guide. It seems to be a Japanese trend. Don't understand the logic.

It is  such a short rod,  with such a long rear handle on the factory build, that the first guide is already pretty close to the reel seat. Any guide layout is going to be a compromise of some sort.

Maybe it's me, but deep drop jigging a 500 gram jig on a bendy 5 1/2 foot spinning rod just sounds like a less fun way to go.  I was pulling on some medium size deep groupers and a few chunky fortune jack (medregal fortuna in Spanish) just a couple days ago not too far from where Alex fishes.  That spinner setup would have been my last choice.  Especially on  a panga in bumpy seas.

Everybody gets to chose what style of fishing that they like best, but I am mystified on the allure of drop jigging spinners deep for larger fish.

-J

[steelfish]

Hrm. I think the LC guide works on surf rods because it's along way from the reel so the coils coming off have time/space to straighten out. I think with a short jig rod you would have line slapping on the smaller ring/frame of the LC. Obviously you're not casting but with a 500g jig that line is still coming off the reel pretty fast.
Every single one of my spin jig rods has a KW stripper guide, larger on the heavier rods where it's expected you might use a 20000-size reel.

totally agree with you, see!! thats why I had to make the question about the LC guide.

...but with a 500g jig that line is still coming off the reel pretty fast.

this is what I hate about jiggin with spinning reels, you dont have control on the speed of the line coming off the reel with a heavy jig, with a casting reel you can always put pressure with your finger if you want to control how fast if the jig pulling line

[steelfish]

It is  such a short rod,  with such a long rear handle on the factory build, that the first guide is already pretty close to the reel seat. Any guide layout is going to be a compromise of some sort.

Maybe it's me, but deep drop jigging a 500 gram jig on a bendy 5 1/2 foot spinning rod just sounds like a less fun way to go.  I was pulling on some medium size deep groupers and a few chunky fortune jack (medregal fortuna in Spanish) just a couple days ago not too far from where Alex fishes.  That spinner setup would have been my last choice.  Especially on  a panga in bumpy seas.
Everybody gets to chose what style of fishing that they like best, but I am mystified on the allure of drop jigging spinners deep for larger fish.
-J

well, this 5'2" rod is not that bendy and it looks like it has some backbone as you will see in the next picture and video lifting 25lb (and there is another video with 30# lift), I must admit this wont be my main jigging setup, Im building part is just for the fun of it and part because I now have some cool spinning reels that need to be used a bit more by my self and/or my daughters, mostly with schoolie size fishes as corvinas, spanish macks, king macks and schoolie YT, I needed something lighter than a Calstar grafigther 70M.





My main setup for vertical jigging for my Fishing Playgrounds will be a UC Zeus3 rod built for Casting reels (still unsure if I will build it with ACID wrapped guides or built with a typical standard guide arrange).


this Calstar graphite 70M rod paired with a quantum cabo 60 was kinda heavy for my daughter, so I think a light weight jigging rod with a Shimano stradic 6000 will be a better setup for her and its a fishing rod I can use it with no problem with the same reel or the same Cabo 60

[boon]

Everybody gets to chose what style of fishing that they like best, but I am mystified on the allure of drop jigging spinners deep for larger fish.

-J

I've done plenty of both, I just prefer spin. It's hard to put my finger on why, exactly.

Off the top of my head, spinners obviously handle line-lay for you, the combos are better balanced due to having the reel underneath, and even the best freespooling overhead in the world can't match the "freespool" of a spinner with the bail open, which can make a difference for getting the jig down fast enough to remain vertical enough for jigging, especially in deeper water.
EDIT: Oh, and nobody makes an overhead as nice as a Saltiga or a Stella spinner

Downsides... definitely the reel/line underneath the rod if you get railed.

I'm always a little perplexed by the reputation of these rods as "bendy". Sure they're parabolic but they're anything but soft.

[boon]

this is what I hate about jiggin with spinning reels, you dont have control on the speed of the line coming off the reel with a heavy jig, with a casting reel you can always put pressure with your finger if you want to control how fast if the jig pulling line

If you need to control it, lightly pinch the braid between your finger and thumb. It's amazing what a difference even extremely light pressure makes.

[jurelometer]

That photo of the loaded factory rod kinda shows what the guide setup has to be for this blank, with some adjustment if you relocate the reel sest, or if the reel chosen has a different stem length. That bend profile is not leaving a lot of options IMHO.

Agree that "bendy" is a bit of a vague term. For me it means a rod that bends deeply into the butt, not how easily it bends.

Parabolic technically means a curve where the "legs" on both side of the apex are a mirror image of each other.  Not a good description of blank action either.

I could see how an eggbeater hanging under the rod would be more comfortable for speed winding a heavy jig compared to a conventional reel once the reel size needed to be fairly large. Keeping a large reel on top does require extra effort.

But I do most of my drop jigging with a low profile levelwind = pure bliss.  That's up to about 100 grams.  Switch to a regular conventional for up to 250 grams.  I have little desire to speed wind 500 gram jigs, so I cannot speak from experience in that range.

If you gave me a Stella or Saltiga spinner,  I would rejoice with the thought of all the beer I could buy after I sold it

-J