More Penns (710,712) = more fun + more problems

[circlehook]

I enjoyed working on my 700 and 704, so I bought a couple more reels off "the auction site", .. a 710 and 712

I serviced them both and a couple of issues persist that leave me scratching my head

The 712 is smoother running than the 710 . not a big issue at all but more curiosity OCD I degreased and polished the shafts with fine grit emery paper . Runs better than before , but might need to tackle this again ang examine for any bushing wear. The bearing seems fine . Worst case, I'll swap gears between the housings (I also have an extra set of 712 main + pinion + bearing) that I might try and swap into the 710 to improve the retrieve rate

The 710 bail occasionally brushes the handle . Not a big deal, but I wonder if it's misshapen or what . Might need to get the pliers out . Apart from that , I might consider hunting for a metal spool and maybe a larger handle . Only problem is the cost .. almost easier to just buy a 710z and share spools

Regarding the 712, it needs a new bail spring and trip return spring. Fairly straightforward

The puzzler. When retrieving , I hear a periodic clunk . I noticed that on this reel (and the 710), the spool shaft can move up and down about 1/16 to 1/8 " . This might be normal since bithe these reels exhibit the same behavior. I also notice that the pinion bearing slides freely on the pinion gear shaft . Might be normal but just mentioning it . I'm not sure if my 700 / 704 were like that .

I did notice that if I removed the plastic clicker (it looks like it has some wear on it), the periodic clunk disappears .. so that has something to do .. although I'm not sure why , or what the fix for that issue would be .

All said, I'm impressed with these reels . The 710 is the perfect size for casual use. The 712 is a bit smaller that what I normally use in the surf  but still nice.

[circlehook]

I cleaned out / lubed the bail spring on the 712 and slightly loosened the bail screws. The spring is still a bit weak but.at least the reel trips reliably now . Just have to figure out the issue with the  clunk / clicker

[foakes]

A lot of these little parts are not available through retail or wholesale sources any longer for he Spinfishers.

But I do have most anything needed.

Let me know if any parts are wanted.

Many times on a lazy bail —- a bail spring is the ticket —- along with a thorough cleaning job —- then checking to see if the bail has been tweaked —- and what few people realize, is that the bail arm could also be bent.  Just takes a little adjustment with smooth-jawed pliers or a crescent wrench.

Also make sure you have clear schematics for each reel.  Just a spacer or a clip left off will change everything in how it is supposed to function.

Best, Fred

[circlehook]

A lot of these little parts are not available through retail or wholesale sources any longer for he Spinfishers.

But I do have most anything needed.

Let me know if any parts are wanted.

Many times on a lazy bail —- a bail spring is the ticket —- along with a thorough cleaning job —- then checking to see if the bail has been tweaked —- and what few people realize, is that the bail arm could also be bent.  Just takes a little adjustment with smooth-jawed pliers or a crescent wrench.

Also make sure you have clear schematics for each reel.  Just a spacer or a clip left off will change everything in how it is supposed to function.

Best, Fred

Yes, My 700 has that issue .. observe the bail arm scratching the cup towards the end of its arc. I need to bend it outwards a bit .

The bail arm on my 704 was bent even worse. I opted to just replace it

[circlehook]

Identified the cause and possible fix for the clunk . Upon analysis, I noticed that it happened when the spool was at its lowest point and when the spool clicker was roughly inline with the cup trip lever assembly .

Hypothesising that this could be the culprit, I fashioned a rough thrust washer out of a plastic bottle cap and inserted it behind the original Teflon drag washer/ thrust washer and re assembled the spool. The clunk is gone and the clicker still works .

As a final solution, I guess I should replace the original Teflon washer at the very least . Beyond that, should I double up on the Teflon washers or look for a stainless steel metal washer to replace my interim shim ?

I also need to determine the effects of this fix on the line lay for better or worse

[Midway Tommy]

I cleaned out / lubed the bail spring on the 712 and slightly loosened the bail screws. The spring is still a bit weak but.at least the reel trips reliably now . Just have to figure out the issue with the  clunk / clicker

One thing I would recommend is to not loosen the bail arm screws to help make the bail work or close better. They are all designed for the bail arm screw to be torqued down tight. If they are not tight they'll have a tendency to unscrew and work loose when you keep opening & closing the bail. Eventually you'll end up losing the screw. It's paramount to figure out why the bail isn't working correctly and fix the problem, not just loosen the screw. 

[circlehook]

I cleaned out / lubed the bail spring on the 712 and slightly loosened the bail screws. The spring is still a bit weak but.at least the reel trips reliably now . Just have to figure out the issue with the  clunk / clicker

One thing I would recommend is to not loosen the bail arm screws to help make the bail work or close better. They are all designed for the bail arm screw to be torqued down tight. If they are not tight they'll have a tendency to unscrew and work loose when you keep opening & closing the bail. Eventually you'll end up losing the screw. It's paramount to figure out why the bail isn't working correctly and fix the problem, not just loosen the screw.

Agreed, that was just when cleaning / diagnosing . The correct fix would be a new bail spring .

[jgp12000]

One of my 712s bail wasn't snapping as it should.I removed the bail wire and tested the bail spring just with the arm,it was good.
I reinstalled the bail and just squeezed the bail by hand with my thumb and forefinger on each end together if that makes sense,and it corrected it.I highly recommend a new bearing even on a reel that seems smooth,it will be even better.The old bearing could be 50+ years old.Is the bail bumper missing,I believe
Mystic has them?

[circlehook]

One of my 712s bail wasn't snapping as it should.I removed the bail wire and tested the bail spring just with the arm,it was good.
I reinstalled the bail and just squeezed the bail by hand with my thumb and forefinger on each end together if that makes sense,and it corrected it.I highly recommend a new bearing even on a reel that seems smooth,it will be even better.The old bearing could be 50+ years old.Is the bail bumper missing,I believe
Mystic has them?

The bumper is intact, surprisingly.

After working the bail back & forth a few times after cleaning and lubrication, it's gotten better , even with torqued down bail screws but still a bit weak so probably best to replace while parts are still available.

I also fixed the 710 bail brushing against the handle by imperceptibly bending the bail wire .

Both reels are almost fully diagnosed at this time .

The 712 needs an extra thrust / drag washer and a bail and trip springs

The 710 needs nothing more though I still need to figure out why , even though it's perfectly acceptable as it is and much better than when I first got it, it still doesn't crank as smoothly as the 712
 Might be something worn inside or just some more cleaning . The bearings seem fine . I'll examine the bushings next week. The sure fire way to find out would be to swap the machinery between the 2 housings (the housings are identical)

I'll update this thread when I have more news to share

[jgp12000]

Make sure the rotor nut is tight,once my spool was dragging on on side and had no idea the nut was loose.

[OhReely]

I had that clunk at the bottom of the stroke on a 714Z. Shimmed the spool with a a thin washer under the teflon one as you did to correct it.

In your picture of the 712 bail arm screw it looks too tight. Mine has a gap around the screw head to bail arm all the way around the screw head at both ends of the bail wire. That should be a shoulder screw, perhaps it's not the correct one but a bent bail can also cause the bail to bind. If it is indeed a shoulder screw try putting a shim under the shoulder to see if that helps.

When you say the 710 doesn't crank as smooth as the 712 do you mean it's rough feeling or just isn't as free feeling. Is there a shim washer under the handle, is the rotor nut too tight, does the main gear shaft turn freely in the body, if you pull the axle shaft out is it better (bent axle?), is the axle to oscillation arm connection too tight (screw too tight, gap in oscillation arm closed down), if you greased the axle when you reassembled try putting a drop of oil on it at the top of the stroke, crank it see if it moves more freely. I saw you sanded the shaft, what grit did you use? I always finish with 1000 grit or finer wet/dry with Penn reel oil.

[OhReely]

I thought of a couple more things. The difference in gear ratio from the 710 to 712 is nearly 14%. That's alot and considering they both use the same handle it wouldn't be surprising to notice a difference in cranking effort.

The 712Z which I recently acquired has a sealed pinion bearing with a rubber shield on one side and a SS shield on the other side. I thought that was odd since it appeared it had been used very little and never been serviced or even opened up. My experience is that sealed bearings don't turn as free especially at startup. I have three other first gen Spinfishers which had shielded (not sealed) pinion bearings when I acquired them.

Relative to their size the 716Z  requires the most cranking effort, the 704Z the least, with the 714Z and 712Z somewhere in between and close to one another.

[Midway Tommy]

It would be my best estimate, from experience, that if you have a ball bearing shielded on one side with rubber then it's not Penn original stock parts. It evidently had been carefully and expertly opened.   

[foakes]

It would be my best estimate, from experience, that if you have a ball bearing shielded on one side with rubber then it's not Penn original stock parts. It evidently had been carefully and expertly opened.   

Yep...

Best, Fred

[oldmanjoe]

  I am looking at this picture , why is there scrapes in the rotor cup ? And is there a flat spot / crack in the cup at the bail arm location ?