Shimano MLX 200 Disc Drag

[steelfish]

Recently I received a bag with lots of incomplete reels many were cheap broken reels that went directly to the trash can but found some reels that worth to be saved and some just needed a deep clean and lube job just like this Small Shimano MLX 200 spinning reel, I havent gone through completely dismantled it and clean each part, I just took the main gear out and took a bunch of solidified grease out from it as well from the pinion, few droops of tsi321 and the reel started to feel pretty smooth and freely

but, whats the story on the Disc Drag !
pretty sure was an idea that wasnt that accepted because I havent seen it before
have anyone tried to upgrade it with a carbontex drag washer sandwiched there?

[JasonGotaProblem]

I have an MLZ and I did just that. With good results.

[happyhooker]

I assume the upgrade placed a new washer under, or in place of, the bottom drag disk, leaving the top "disk" untouched.

Frank

[steelfish]

I have an MLZ and I did just that. With good results.

did you glued the drag washer to the bottom disc surface or how did you managed to avoid the drag washer to spin along the discs when fish pulling the line?

[JasonGotaProblem]

I have an MLZ and I did just that. With good results.

did you glued the drag washer to the bottom disc surface or how did you managed to avoid the drag washer to spin along the discs when fish pulling the line?

No it free floats. One side spins with spool other with shaft its perfect

[happyhooker]

Strange on the drag washers.  As I see it, there are actually 2 washers: the one that is under the spool knob (shown on pic above) and the base washer, which is fixed to the clicker wheel (aka spindle on the Shimano schematic) by 3 small tabs.  If you were to put an additional washer between the spindle and the base washer, I don't see how that would directly affect the friction characteristics of the drag, as there is no movement between the spindle and base disk in any event.  If you put an additional washer between the spool knob and the upper formed drag disk, it might affect things a little, but since the additional washer is being placed between two items that are already sliding between themselves, I'm not sure you are getting much new drag force.

Or, am I looking at this wrong?

Frank

[JasonGotaProblem]

By the argument above, one could argue that any single disk drag setup wouldn't be harmed by removing the drag disk because metal would slide on metal and there would still be friction

In mine I believe I removed the disk with the tabs and replaced with a similar thickness carbon drag disk.

[happyhooker]

By the argument above, one could argue that any single disk drag setup wouldn't be harmed by removing the drag disk because metal would slide on metal and there would still be friction

In mine I believe I removed the disk with the tabs and replaced with a similar thickness carbon drag disk.

Metal might or might or slide on another metal surface.  It might just lock up.  If there was friction, would it be enough to be useful as drag? A typical front spool mounted spinning drag has the friction disk (Teflon, leather, fiber, carbon fiber, etc.) mounted loosely between two metal or plastic surfaces; if a single friction disk, one of the metal/plastic surfaces will be the spool and the other will be a washer keyed to the spool shaft.  Multi-disks add in additional keyed/eared washers; the friction disk should be sandwiched between two surfaces, one being the spool or an washer eared into slots in the spool, and the other being keyed to the spool shaft.  I'm sure there are exceptions or other ways of doing this, but the spool has to turn while the spool shaft doesn't.

Frank

[JasonGotaProblem]

Thank you for replying, you've forced me to better understand the mechanism myself. And a Picture is worth a thousand words here. The portion of #6 being pointed to with the red arrow is the same diameter as the opening inside the spool. The drag disk (#5) rubs on the bottom of the spool (#3) it doesn't contact the drag knob, which pushes the spool against #6 sandwiching #5 in between. No reason #5 need to be keyed to shaft. But shimano does like to secure one side of a drag disk. Not sure why.

[jurelometer]

No reason #5 need to be keyed to shaft. But shimano does like to secure one side of a drag disk. Not sure why.

If the friction disk is not keyed, the sliding is going to occur  between whichever pair of surfaces has the lowest coefficient of friction (most slippery) at that point in time.  If you want to ensure that a specific surface pair is where the sliding is happening, the friction washer has to be locked to the side that you don't want to  slip.

Lots of reasons to prefer one side over the other.  For example, if the non sliding side is plastic or cast metal, it would make sense to not want the sliding to occur there. Or if they are using felt drag washers, only one surface needs to be really smooth and flat.  Sliding on the spool side allows for an aluminum spool to be an effective heat sink.  And so on...

In the classic sandwiched multi-disk drag stack, with alternating keyed and eared metal washers,  one side is as good as the other, so no need to chose.

-J 

[happyhooker]

You're like me, I'm thinking, Jason.  I like to understand how things work too.  Hard to solve a problem if you don't have the background of facts.  I took a look at the front end of a MLX 200, with your picture from above helping me. The round part extending from the front of your #6 (called the "spindle" in the Shimano schematic) does indeed fit inside the center opening in the spool.  If you slip the spool onto this part of the spindle (leaving the drag knob off for a minute), the spool will freely turn, with the back inside of the spool contacting #5.  Since #5 is "eared" to the spindle by 3 tabs, when the spool turns, #5 will not turn.  When the drag knob is installed and tightened, it will exert pressure on the spool and increase the friction between the spool (turning) and #5 (not turning).

On the front end of the spool, the drag knob has a drag disk (#2 on your picture) that fits into the knob.  It is not firmly affixed to the knob, and will freely turn around the inside of the knob. It also not affixed to the spool. However, this #2 disk is keyed to fit over the front end of #6 (spindle).  Therefore, when the spool freely turns against the #5 disk, it will also turn against #2, which is fixed to the spindle.  Again, tightening down the drag knob will exert pressure against #2, which will exert pressure against the front side of the spool, increasing drag pressure.

In the normal course of fishing, the friction of all these parts will allow the handle to be turned and the spool to bring in the line.  Yet, the pressure of a fish on the line may overcome this pressure, causing the spool to turn, while the spindle, drag knob and #2 remain stationary.  You'll know this happens because the drag clicker will start to make noise, letting you know the drag is operating.

I'm thinking #5 had to be eared to the spindle (#6), because you would want the spool, which is turning when the drag is operating, to rub against a surface that is not turning.  Disk #2 will also not be turning as the spool turns.  Voila, two drag disks working together.

If #2 ever breaks or gets lost, you'll need a replacement #2 to put things back in order; a plain flat friction disk can't take the place of a #2.  That being said, I would not put it beyond the realm of possibility for one of our creative AT members to come up with a jury rig that would work too.

Frank

[jurelometer]

I'm thinking #5 had to be eared to the spindle (#6), because you would want the spool, which is turning when the drag is operating, to rub against a surface that is not turning.  Disk #2 will also not be turning as the spool turns.  Voila, two drag disks working together.

Agree. Understanding how things works makes it easier to figure out if parts are missing, or what might be the cause of a problem.

One clarification: The friction washer does not have to be stationary in order for a drag to work. For example, the friction washer rotates with the spool on most lever drag reels.  For a given reel design,  one may be better than the other, or it may not matter and can be random.  And it can be designed to be different for both sides of a spinning reel spool and still work.

On a lever drag, the carbon fiber friction washer would rapidly abrade the aluminum if it was rubbing against the spool.  So the simplest design is to fix the friction washer to the spool, and fix a hard stainless steel drag plate to the pinion.

BTW, we all really seem to like cramming CF washers into nearly every possible location in nearly every reel, but it is not always going to be an upgrade.  It depends on the reel design and usage.  Using the above example,  replacing a felt  or Teflon washer that rubs against an aluminum spool with CF could lead to abrading the spool if you use enough drag.  Plus CF is top of the cathode to anode chart, meaning a much higher risk of galvanic corrosion on aluminum if the reel gets fished or stored around saltwater (and a good reason to grease CF washers where they touch aluminum).


Many other properties to consider, but you can probably get away with a lot on a small spinner that does not have much in the way of drag requirements beyond low clamping force required and a small difference between static and kinetic  coefficient of friction.  The more drag that is required, the more mechanical and thermal properties need to be taken into consideration.

Sometimes if it ain't broke, don't fix it can be the best strategy.

As to part key #2 - the main function should be to separate the spool from the drag knob, so that the spool turning does not change the drag.  There should be a ball bearing or something inside the spool that it presses against, unless Shimano went the cheap route. If the bottom of this part rubs gains the aluminum on the spool, then it is acting as a thrust bearing (minimal friction).  If you want to stick a friction washer in here to add a drag surface, wear and corrosion is probably  be a consideration.

-J

[happyhooker]

Drag disk #2 has an angled surface to match a similar one on the spool.  A flat replacement disk might or might not work.  This #2 fits loosely into the drag knob; no ball bearing, but seems to work OK.

Frank

[JasonGotaProblem]

If it ain't broke give it a 5 stack and wait.

[quang tran]

The first reel use this drag set up is Dam Quick SLS not Shimano and the first reel Shimano use this is Shimano Bass one ,small reel with big diameter spool .Only for a few year then everyone go back to multi- disk design