looking for recipes and guidance for smoking tuna small fillets

Started by steelfish, December 20, 2023, 08:00:07 PM

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steelfish

hey Stevo, I would eat that Salmon in a heartbeat, looks yum!!
The Baja Guy

jigmaster501

I have 23 years of regulatory food safety experience and I was the project lead for the 2019 revision of the AFDO Cured, Salted and Smoked Fish Establishments Guidance Document. Download a free copy at www.afdo.org and
PM me your number and I will call you.

I will be glad to help you safely make smoked fish at home.

That goes for anyone.

Also see in the recipes section where I have posted Food Safety for All.

Eugene


jigmaster501

Sorry, I was reading quick and didn't see that your post is already in recipes.

Been a long week. Hope everyone cooks to safe temperatures, cools food rapidly and eats well this weekend (for those celebrating)

Eugene

jurelometer

Eugene!

I was hoping you would jump in. I would like to add a couple comments and questions if you don't mind.

It took a bit a digging, but I think that you are referring to this document:

https://www.afdo.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/Cured_salted_and_smoked_fish_establishments_good_manufacturing_practices_acc_updated_2019.pdf


Interesting reading, but I assume for the general public, determining the water phase salt percentage is pretty close to impossible, Even though Alex is more fortunate enough than most of us to have an actual trained chemist in the house, there is still the equipment issue.

1.  Your "Food Safety for all" thread (https://alantani.com/index.php/topic,19112.0.html ) also mentioned the 3.5% water phase salt target, but I didn't see any information on how someone at home is supposed to accomplish this.  Is this possible?

2. How important is hitting a high (and specific) salt level if the fish is going from 38F into a hot  smoker and hitting the internal target temp (145F?) for enough time (30 minutes?), presuming that the fish is consumed immediately or rapidly chilled below 38F and consumed within three days or so? 

3. I remember reading something about the drying on the surface during smoking can create a more anerobic environment underneath which will favor the growth of some specific nasty bacteria, so smoking may not have the same safety profile as let's say, roasting, even if the same target temps/times are achieved. Is this correct?

4. Is there a document that you would recommend for us civilians interested in hot smoking sport caught fish for consumption within the next day or three?  Do you have any issues with the OSU document that I linked to? It has some brining instructions that could actually be followed by a home processor.

-J

jigmaster501

Quote from: jurelometer on December 23, 2023, 12:49:17 AMEugene!

I was hoping you would jump in. I would like to add a couple comments and questions if you don't mind.

It took a bit a digging, but I think that you are referring to this document:

https://www.afdo.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/Cured_salted_and_smoked_fish_establishments_good_manufacturing_practices_acc_updated_2019.pdf

You got the right document.....


Interesting reading, but I assume for the general public, determining the water phase salt percentage is pretty close to impossible, Even though Alex is more fortunate enough than most of us to have an actual trained chemist in the house, there is still the equipment issue.

1.  Your "Food Safety for all" thread (https://alantani.com/index.php/topic,19112.0.html ) also mentioned the 3.5% water phase salt target, but I didn't see any information on how someone at home is supposed to accomplish this.  Is this possible?   
YES- This is possible by using a water activity meter. If shooting for 3.5% WPS you would need an equivalent water activity of 0.979.   If you are using sugar and salt mixture, you can go down below 0.97 without it being too salty but you will totally control non-proteolytic Cbot.

2. How important is hitting a high (and specific) salt level if the fish is going from 38F into a hot  smoker and hitting the internal target temp (145F?) for enough time (30 minutes?), presuming that the fish is consumed immediately or rapidly chilled below 38F and consumed within three days or so? 

HOT smoking to 145F and holding for 30 minutes will achieve a partial destruction of non-proteolytic Cbot spores and combined with water phase salt/water activity being controlled, you will prevent the spores from repairing themselves and creating toxin under temperature abuse conditions. If you are going to ALL of the fish in one siting right out of the smoker, this is not crucial but if you are not, don't take the risk.

3. I remember reading something about the drying on the surface during smoking can create a more anerobic environment underneath which will favor the growth of some specific nasty bacteria, so smoking may not have the same safety profile as let's say, roasting, even if the same target temps/times are achieved. Is this correct? 

THE Pellicle creates an anaerobic environment which can contribute to Cbot toxin formation even outside of vacuum packaging. This is why it is important to get smoke under the pellicle before drying to allow for the phenolic compounds from the smoke to drop the pH under the pellicle which will facilitate Cbot toxin formation prevention, help destroy pathogens during smoking and help achieve a longer shelf life, safely. Go right from brine/dry cure into the smoker with smoke going and apply smoke for at least the first half of the smoking cycle

4. Is there a document that you would recommend for us civilians interested in hot smoking sport caught fish for consumption within the next day or three?  Do you have any issues with the OSU document that I linked to? It has some brining instructions that could actually be followed by a home processor.

The OSU document is good for home use. Getting a high quality water activity meter will make your life alot easier. If you are going to be storing the product in the fridge for periods of time and or vacuum sealing, I would suggest going with a sugar/salt brine (either dry cure or wet brine) and getting your water activity to 0.979 or lower BEFORE going in the smoker. This way you know you don't have to control humidity in the smoker which is not easy in home smokers. The sugar will be your friend to take the bite off the salt and help you achieve a safer product. The water activity will only go lower in the smoker.

When using yellowfin tuna, the natural unbrined water activity can vary from 0.92- 0.98 and this is why water activity testing is a good measure for home use. (You might not need as much salt as you would need for other fish for safety) Test the water activity of your fish before brine, after brine/dry cure and when you are done.
-J


jurelometer

Thanks Eugene!

It looks to me like a water activity meter is currently an option for the more deep pocketed and sophisticated home-smoker.  Prices start around $650 USD, and the device has to be calibrated cleaned and operated properly to get reliable data. Leaving cost out of the picture, for many home cooks, properly maintaining and operating a can opener can be a challenge.

But I do think that this is still useful for us civillians  to understand.  And if we are so inclined, it sounds like following the OSU process will greatly improve the odds of the average home smoker making a product that is close to the commercial product guidelines.

While a home smoker may have confidence in their recipe and process based on anecdotal evidence ("haven't made anyone sick"),  it is still worth understanding how you are diverting from the commercial practice. 

Correct me if I am wrong here:  One of the keys is that in order to have the residual water in the final product have a 3.5% salt content (WPA), a super salty brine has to be used.  Bottled teriyaki sauce is not anywhere near the right ballpark for brining to reach these goals.  That OSU brine looks to be somewhere in the 15 to 20% salinity range!

Thanks again. 

-J

jigmaster501

You could get a decent water activity meter for 200 dollars. The key is the level of accuracy. The Aqualab Paw kit is $8000.00 and unless you are burning 100's for heat in the fireplace, it is not feasible.


When dealing with brine solutions, you have to look at lbs of fish per gallons of brine at defined salinity concentrations, temperature of the brine (you need to dissolve the salt in warmer water but brine in water at 38F or less), thickness of fish, fat content, etc.

I would suggest someone at home use a dry salting process (using 2 parts brining salt and 1 part of sugar). I would suggest achieving a water activity of less than 0.979 (water phase salt) greater than 3.5% before going in the smoker. Some home smokers are not that sophisticated and trying to calculate moisture loss to achieve the proper water activity/water phase salt can be challenging.

Conduct the dry salting under 38F or less. The more sugar you use, the slower the process to absorb but you can bind water and remove water without the heavy salt taste.

After dry salting, do a quick rinse to remove salt/sugar crystals and immediately place in the smoker to apply smoke and and start the smoking/drying process.

You can get the internal temperature to 145F and hold for 30 minutes much faster without the need for controlling moisture removal. If your finished product gets a water activity of 0.97 or less, you have totally controlled non-proteolytic Cbot without the need for phenolic compounds and a partial destruction of spores. For the people at home with limited equipment, using multiple hurdles (barriers) is the way to go for safety.

When using water phase salt of 3.5%/water activity 0.979(finished product) and hot smoking you need,

145F for 30 minutes
smoke applied before pellicle formation and after for at least the 1st half of the smoking cycle
Temperature of 38F or less during brining and refrigerated storage.

These combined will control the growth and toxin formation of non-proteolytic Cbot.

When using water phase salt of 5%/water activity 0.97 (finished product) and hot smoking you need.

145F for 17 minutes
smoke applied before pellicle formation and after for at least the 1st half of the smoking cycle
Temperature of 38F or less during brining and 40F or less during refrigerated storage


I personally would always go for 145F for 30 minutes unless the fish was going to be consumed immediately after coming out of the smokehouse without leftovers.

Bottled teriyaki sauce is more of an acidulant that would control pH which is different animal all together.

If you want teriyaki flavor, you can do a quick dip in teriyaki sauce after dry curing to adhere the sauce to the surface before smoking.

The OSU document will greatly improve your odds of safe home processing of smoked fish.

All food processing has dangers involved that unfortunately are never taught in school although everyone has to eat to survive. Smoking is a process that has multiple hazards that are deadly if not controlled and needs multiple steps all working in unison to control all the hazards consistently.

Eugene






steelfish

Quote from: jigmaster501 on December 25, 2023, 01:40:03 PM.........smoking is a process that has multiple hazards that are deadly if not controlled and needs multiple steps all working in unison to control all the hazards consistently.
Eugene

geezzzuuss!! man I think I'd rather grill the tuna and add "smockey flavored BBQ sauce" :-\  :-\   
The Baja Guy

Crab Pot

Quote from: steelfish on December 26, 2023, 10:05:40 PMgeezzzuuss!! man I think I'd rather grill the tuna and add "smockey flavored BBQ sauce" :-\  :-\   

Funny, I was at my local Big Box grocery store.

I could have bought any form of smoked meat I wanted.
Buy it nice or buy it twice.

jigmaster501

Large scale processors who sell to supermarkets have validation studies done for their processes in relation to their equipment and have testing equipment that the average person cannot afford for home use. Old style smoke fish was much drier and was a true preservation technique. Modern smoked fish is much wetter resulting in the need of many more controls of many more hazards.

steelfish

Quote from: jigmaster501 on December 28, 2023, 01:04:22 AM... Old style smoke fish was much drier and was a true preservation technique.
**** Modern smoked fish is much wetter resulting in the need of many more controls of many more hazards.

I like the old style smoked fish, the one that you can find on the fish market (Mexico and asian style of fish markets), you just grab the fish you want to buy and no need to eat it quickly

so, whats the difference in time (in the smoker) if I want to smoke my fish that way, very dry which is perfect for some local appetizers, salads and fish cream dips.


The Baja Guy

jigmaster501

For that type of old style smoking, you would need to achieve 20% Water Phase salt or a Water activity of 0.85. That will make the fish shelf stable (needs no refrigeration) as long as it doesn't absorb any moisture. It will be very dry or if you use lots of sugar, very sweet. Likely a long brine/dry cure and a very long hot smoke with lots of moisture removal.

steelfish

Quote from: jurelometer on December 21, 2023, 12:20:14 AM........Since you are dealing with longer times and lower temperatures for smoking, there is more potential to end up with a bad batch of food compared to the regular cooking methods.
Here is one reference:
https://seafood.oregonstate.edu/sites/agscid7/files/snic/smoking-fish-at-home-safely.pdf
Happy smoking!
-J

at the beginning of the 2nd page of that document gives a "rule of the thumb" for proper salting before smocking fish
"salt the fish on a strong salt brine solution, 1 part of table salt with 7 parts of water or 1 cup of salt for 7 cups of water"
well, the myself being a rockie on using a smoker used that proportion to brine 2# of tuna cut in 1" and 2" finger size cuts, the result was a pretty salty fish :-\  the flavor was good but I dont like salty food so, we didnt eat that  :-[
I used the same brine solution in a different zipbag to brine some pork and same results waaay too salty, I know the document was for smocking fish safety, not smocking pork safety but ooh well its my learning curve LOL
that was two weeks ago.

now, this past weekend I tried the smoker again but this time to smoke some short ribs, I didnt use any brine with the ribs, I just used some of my favorite pork spices mix and then leaved the pork ribs on a zipbag on the fridge for few hours, followed some steps, tips, time, temps, etc from some video tutorials and wow! they came out really good, really juicy and tender with a nice crunchy and full of flavor cap.
one of the racks of ribs was on the smoker wrapped in foil for 1.5hrs and the meat was juicy, fully cocked but still firm (I like my short ribs like that), I left the 2nd half of ribs for another 10 minutes still wrapped on foil and after that put them both for 35 minutes directly on the smoker to get that crispy skin, as you can see the half that had more minutes wrapped on foil cameout really tender

well, I wanted to try again to smoke tuna, so this time we used a brine recipe from the guy that sold me the smoker, the brine is merely for flavor on the tuna not focusing on preserve the fish for many days so, the brine recipe has salt but not that extra-salty, that tuna will be eaten in the next two days, this time I used a full piece of fillets not small cuts as the 1st time, it came out as it was planned dry with a nice smoke flavor and other aromatic flavors from the spices used, the last pictures are tuna chunks
The Baja Guy

jigmaster501

Realize that without 3.5%Wps for vacuum packaged or 2.5% for air packaged (or knowing that you have that), you only have 1 barrier for non-proteolytic Cbot toxin formation at 38F or less.

If you go this route, you need to ensure that you get a ton of smoke under the pellicle, hold that product below 38F or less and eat as fast as possible.

the ribs look good though....lol