Screw for Shakespaere 1835

[Amanaland]

 I was putting together a fly fishing outfit for my grandson and realized that the Shakespaere 1835 I had for him was missing one of the center screws. I borrowed one from another reel but now I want to replace that. It looks like a #4 but a 4-32 and a 4-40 screw didn't fit. Can someone sell me a correct replacement? I can't believe that it's metric, but that remains a possibility. Thanks in advance for any help!

[alantani]

it's probably metric.  metric screws are actually pretty easy to measure out.

[Amanaland]

This reel came in its original box with an envelope dated 1961. It says "Made in USA" on the reel. Were they using metric hardware for US reels 60+ years ago? I didn't even look at metric hardware because it was so old...Stupidity comes naturally to me.

[alantani]

depends on where it was made.

[jurelometer]

Welcome!

Very likely to be inch based IMHO.

5-40 screws were used a bit on US reels from that time period.  4-40 and 6-32 would be the other common options in that size range.  A 4-40 screw will slip or maybe sort of fit in a 5-40 threaded hole, but will be too loose, and a 6-32 will just be too large a diameter to fit on the hole at all.

Metric fine machine threads that would fall into this range are M2.5 (around the size of a 4-40) and M3 (about the size of a 5-40).

If you have an old Penn star drag reel lying around, any of the sideplate screws will probably be a 5-40.

A good local hardware store (not the big orange or blue box places) should have 4-40, 6-32, M2.5 and M3 screws in loose stock. maybe  even one of those screw size test boards.  Most hardware stores do not carry 5-40.

If you have some digital calipers handy, it is pretty easy to determine the screw size by measuring and comparing to any of the tables on the internet (look for major male diameter).  If you set the calipers at 1/4 in, set next to the screw, photo with your phone, zoom in and count threads, you can verify the thread count (usually not necessary).Same , but in mm for metric.

On a side note, for starting out with fly fishing, an automatic reel is not usually the first choice nowadays.  If chasing down the screw ends up being too much of a hassle, something like a South Bend Finalist will be period correct to pair with an old glass fly rod, and can be had on the auction site for less than $USD20 shipped. About the same price as a box of 5-40 stainless screws shipped from McMaster (but you will have 99 spare screws )

-J

[oc1]

Nobody ever said it has to be a known screw size.  The manufacturer was making their own screws or having them make to their specifications.  It's whatever they wanted.  Considering their contemporary parts market, there was actually a slight advantage to the company in making them an off size.

You lost a twenty-dollar screw there.  That's what it will take to buy a beater reel to cannibalize the screw from.

[jurelometer]

Nobody ever said it has to be a known screw size.  The manufacturer was making their own screws or having them make to their specifications.  It's whatever they wanted.  Considering their contemporary parts market, there was actually a slight advantage to the company in making them an off size.

You lost a twenty-dollar screw there.  That's what it will take to buy a beater reel to cannibalize the screw from.

It had to be  more expensive to define and then make/order an odd size screw and associated taps than to use the standard in that era.


Here are some averages for class 3A ANSI UNF major diameters in that size range:
4: 0.112in
5: 0.120 in
6: 0.138

Kind of hard to find a gap worth squeezing another size in.  They are all so close that even the standard 5-40 is sort of redundant.

If there is some firsthand knowledge of oddball/proprietary threads used in USA  made post WWII reels, I would be interested in learning more.


But I do agree that if someone really liked these reels and wanted to keep one going, buying a parts reel instead of a box of screws makes sense.  Old automatic fly reels are inexpensive on the auction site, and since they do have a reputation for breaking that big coil spring over time if used frequently...

-J

[oc1]

It had to be  more expensive to define and then make/order an odd size screw and associated taps than to use the standard in that era.

If there is some firsthand knowledge of oddball/proprietary threads used in USA  made post WWII reels, I would be interested in learning more.

How about a bearing screw for a Shakespeare 1835?  Actually, there are very few (if any) reel screws for which you could find an exact replacement  at Home Depot, or even McMacter-Carr.

It is not a matter of buying taps.  The threads are cut on a lathe and the specifics are just numbers on a dial.

Then too, there is the screw head which is a whole different set of specifications.  Likewise shoulders on the head, the screwdriver slot, the finish, the screw length, etc.  Even if you could find the correct thread in an off-the-shelf screw, it would still look funky and require modifications..

When you need thousands of screws having them custom made does not cost any more and a custom screw will give you the aesthetic you want.

[jurelometer]

It had to be  more expensive to define and then make/order an odd size screw and associated taps than to use the standard in that era.

If there is some firsthand knowledge of oddball/proprietary threads used in USA  made post WWII reels, I would be interested in learning more.

How about a bearing screw for a Shakespeare 1835?  Actually, there are very few (if any) reel screws for which you could find an exact replacement  at Home Depot, or even McMacter-Carr.

It is not a matter of buying taps.  The threads are cut on a lathe and the specifics are just numbers on a dial.

Don't forget that for every screw that you use, there has to be a matching threaded hole! The only practical way to put a machine thread in a hole on a manufactured metal product is with a tap.  Especially the smaller sizes.

From what I can tell, by WWII, SAE standard thread sizes ruled in the USA.  Anything oddball would likely have been an in-house job using an old setup.  I would be curious to hear of some real world examples on post WWII reels.

I know of only one modern reel maker that at one point claimed to make their own screws (Abel).  And they still used standard thread sizes.  I think it was mostly showing off ("We even make are own screws!").

Then too, there is the screw head which is a whole different set of specifications.  Likewise shoulders on the head, the screwdriver slot, the finish, the screw length, etc.  Even if you could find the correct thread in an off-the-shelf screw, it would still look funky and require modifications..

Agree with you there in some situations.  Especially those extra wide head screws.

There are SAE standards for screw heads. Not sure when these were widely adopted.  The screw head types/shapes used on some older reels seem to be standard, it is just the diameters that are not always accurate.

When you need thousands of screws having them custom made does not cost any more and a custom screw will give you the aesthetic you want.

Not after standardization and mass production became a thing. Standard screws became dirt cheap. One of the benefits of having gone through two world wars.

-J

[oc1]

Don't forget that for every screw that you use, there has to be a matching threaded hole! The only practical way to put a machine thread in a hole on a manufactured metal product is with a tap.  Especially the smaller sizes.

Taps are cut on a lathe. 

[oc1]

Not after standardization and mass production became a thing. Standard screws became dirt cheap. One of the benefits of having gone through two world wars.

-J

When a reel manufacturer is seetting up for a run of thousands of reels, the parts must be on hand as needed.  This requires intimate knowledge of the part manufacturers and supply chain before beginning.  You wouldn't want to get half way through only to find that the part manufacturer or distributor doesn't have the screws you need.  Trouble is, it's not practical for a part manufacturer or distributor to reliably hold in inventory thousands of pieces for each combination of screw diameter, screw length, pitch, tpi, head style, material, finish, etc.  The possible combinations would number in the millions and inventoried pieces would number in the billions.  So, there would be arrangements made beforehand to insure the specified screw will be available as needed.  This essentially becomes a custom order and screws are being made to the reel manufacturers specifications.

[jurelometer]

No reason to keep dragging this away from topic.  We will have to agree to disagree.

I think the important points here are that the SAE thread standards have been around for a long time, screw head shapes and dimensions as well, but not as long.  When the standards first came out (pre-WWI)- switching suppliers could cause an issue with fit, but this was pretty well sorted out by WWII. As an example,  we all use modern screws in our older Penn reels (some pre WWII) without issue (although sometimes the head fit is not ideal as Steve has noted).

I would like to hear of any actual example of proprietary thread sizes in reel screws in after 1930 or so.

I would also like to hear back from what the OP finds out for the screw size in his reel.

-J.