Baja sideplate led to some interesting thought

[JasonGotaProblem]

I just got done putting the new sideplate that has a bearing to support the handle shaft in a penn baja. I was slightly annoyed to learn that it was just a bigger hole and a shorter spacer sleeve. So the star pushes on the bearing (with bellvilles in between) and that pushes on the spacer sleeve which compresses the drag. The bearing just slides in the hole in the side plate i guess. Ok so far that's just a list of obvious observations. I didn't start a thread to just say obvious things. At least not this time.

That got me wondering why the original plate couldn't be used with just a smaller OD bearing. Then the really interesting thought occurred. What stops a fella from shortening the spacer sleeves (or using shorter ones) and adding a ball bearing handle shaft support to the sideplate of every/any senator in a similar fashion?

[Gfish]

Nothing I guess... pictures? I probably wouldn't do it because I don't like ball bearings, except on a baitcaster. Bearings are subject to corrosion and if you don't have time to clean 'em out they end-up needing replacement.

[jurelometer]

I actually messed with this a bit.  The clearance diameter is not large enough to accept a ball bearing on  many classic Penns, especially the smaller ones.  Also, the gear sleeve diameters are often oddball, so finding a bearing with the right sized ID would be tough.  The 113H and similar have a 1/2 inch diameter gear sleeve - so no problem with them in that regard.

There also has to be enough sideplate depth to accommodate the ball bearing plus any travel as you tighten the drag.

There  are some reels where an aftermarket sideplate could be made that housed a bearing - especiallly the 1/2 diameter gear sleeve models.

Finally, the tolerances and alignment on the stock sideplates are usually  not accurate enough  to just drop in a bearing.

Roller bearings are not an option to get a smaller OD, as they are not as misalignment friendly as ball bearings.

Sal used to make solid bearings for the smaller Penns.  These are essentially well fitted gear sleeves.  They took lots of futzing around to get fitted.  And some more futzing to refit after maintenance.  If the fit is not precise, it doesn't help nearly as well in terms of keeping the gears aligned.   I have a Baymaster from Sal that he set up this way.

Sal actually tested his mods, and found that this one can improve winding load capacity.

-J

[Hardy Boy]

You and I talked about this J. A  sleeve to help with handle slop but you did not think the effort was worth any gains. I hate handle slop and would love to eliminate it. I shim my sleeves now but would like more.

[jurelometer]

You and I talked about this J. A  sleeve to help with handle slop but you did not think the effort was worth any gains. I hate handle slop and would love to eliminate it. I shim my sleeves now but would like more.

More is better.  It just usually requires a new sideplate. If the hole in the sideplate is rubbing on your shim -  congratulations, you have a horrible bearing surface that is going to wear quickly.  If it is not rubbing, then it is not doing anything.

Some sideplates have just a hole in the plastic, others a thin stamped chrome/brass insert.  Meh...

Sal's theory was to use a tight fitting shim  (ID and OD) that would  assist alignment occasionally when you were winding very hard against load. His shim fit was very close, requiring a break-in period to eliminate constant rubbing on the not very aligned or perfectly round sideplate hole. Every time you take the reel apart, you need to go through  a bit of the break-in again.


Maybe time to revive the GT 320 project again. A custom sideplate with a sleeve and a plain bearing in the stack, or something similar with a ball bearing. Have a new 3D printer that can  do a better job with "graphite" (Nylon/CF).

-J

[Brewcrafter]

i know there has been a lot of discussion on the Zoom and Dave has given a lot of thought to this.  I see at the beginning 3 thoughts:
1 - Does the sideplate have enough "meat" to be opened up to accept a bearing and be stable?
2 - Can you accurately create the opening with the necessary tight clearances and concentricity to where it is actually doing any good?
3 - Can you create an environment to where it can live?  Right now I have a Cabela's Depthmaster on the bench, and it has a sideplate bearing.  Also the drag star has a "ridge" on the inside that overlaps a corresponding ridge on the sideplate that surrounds the bearing; so that in the field the bearing itself has a small level of protection from splash/dust/etc.  Retrofitting an old Senator - not so much be relying a lot on whatever grease is in the bearing....
But still this is only the beginning of a great thread where I suspect a lot of good thoughts will surface/be resurfaced.  This is how progress is made. - john

[JasonGotaProblem]

I see this going fun places. I had been considering something like a 3d printed bearing holder for something like a 349 with that ultra wide opening.

Im just excited to go try to abuse that baja. I spent long enough looking for one.

I keep telling myself I'm gonna take pictures when I'm inside a reel. But then my hands get all greasy and I don't wanna touch my phone.

[jurelometer]

i know there has been a lot of discussion on the Zoom and Dave has given a lot of thought to this.  I see at the beginning 3 thoughts:
1 - Does the sideplate have enough "meat" to be opened up to accept a bearing and be stable?

Depends on the reel- usually not

2 - Can you accurately create the opening with the necessary tight clearances and concentricity to where it is actually doing any good?

Not freehand with a Dremel.

3 - Can you create an environment to where it can live?

These do fine if packed well with grease (assuming that you left the shields on). If not a plain bearing, the other bearing at the base of the shaft (assuming a solid shaft and not a gear sleeve) can be a problem child if not pre-serviced with lots of grease.

If you are designing from scratch, you can press fit a plain bearing (AKA bushing) sleeve into the sideplate if you want less corrosion issues, but you won't be able to replace it easily after it wears out.  I have seen several Shimano TLD lever drags with worn out handle shaft bearing sleeves in the sideplate, requiring a sideplate replacement.

But IMHO, Any modern saltwater star drag reel worth owning has a solid handle shaft supported on both ends.

The Shimano TLD Star, Daiwa SL*SH and some others came with a ball bearing on a solid shaft (no gear sleeve =  better!)  This was the era when fully supported solid shafts with bearings began to take over in saltwater star drag reels.  There are still a few recent retro/stragglers out there with gear sleeves (looking at you Accurate Tern).

-J