DIY Line Winder Design & Planning

[Mpyeti]

Stuck at the airport, so won't be my best work but regarding some other questions and feedback,

For J: the amount of tension used when spooling is dictated by a formula where you're multiplying the PE rating by a particular factor to determine lbs/optimal tension.

to also elaborate on factors to avoid or mitigate when spooling, I can only speak to what I've personally seen but have seen a lot of applying leather gloves directly to the spool of line heading to the reel and other things that would be creating unnecessary friction/ways to damage the line


Regarding comments about line twist/lay - when you are spooling a spinning reel as seen here there isn't any "twist" being introduced since there isn't a "bail" or that the feeding spool orientation isn't flipped - what matters is the direction in that, the reel spool should receive the line at the top, clockwise and the line spool should feed counterclockwise from the top. While I would agree that the oscillation of the spool will give the most even line lay, I'm focused on having tightly packed line once hooking a fish, so sure the first few casts or drops of a jig the line will settle slightly, but once line is leaving the spool with the bail closed is what matters most imo

My thoughts have been a little out of order so apologies there (I still need to go back and clarify a few things/add some additional insight to others)

*ps the spool method is tried and true on spin - managed to spool a 14k gosa with 65lb jbraid grand that took down a 63" BFT 

[jurelometer]

For J: the amount of tension used when spooling is dictated by a formula where you're multiplying the PE rating by a particular factor to determine lbs/optimal tension.

Yeah, that is one way to do it.  I am curious as to what that particular "factor" is.

I think how you load and fish the line is probably more important than the grams of plastic per 9000 meters, which just gives you a hint about what the maximum load you might want to use when filling.

https://alantani.com/index.php?topic=37780.0


The less tension that you pack the line with, the less cross- fiber bending load causing fracture on the individual fibers, and the less creep deformation.  This will keep the line stronger  for a longer period of time as mentioned earlier in this thread.

But this has to be weighed against  the risk of line wraps digging in and wedging, which is a function of how tight the spool is filled, how aggressive the crosswind is, and how high the drag setting is. 


My casting levelwind reels with an aggressive crosswind built-in, can be successfully packed much looser than  a standard conventional reel packed with each wrap tight to the prior one.

Also, I might putting 65 lb braid on that levelwind for abrasion protection or casting ease of use, but am not going to fish it at more than 15 lbs of drag, but the same line on on a stronger conventional reel meant to stop big snappers and grouper in their tracks might be used with 25 lbs of drag.  This will require a much tighter spool fill.

I might go up to 10% of stated breaking strengthening , but the cow tuna chasers like an even higher number.  I am skeptical about this being necessary, but I don't chase cow tuna, so I wouldn't listen to me  when it comes to packing that big gold two speed

-J

[Mpyeti]

I'm finally back home/have access to the computer, etc.

here is the source for a lot of the inspired / engineered parts of the design, as well as some of the ideology behind the tensioning method and method of spooling.  i do believe there are multiple ways of achieving the same end goal, that is a properly spooled reel for the type of fishing you're doing and all the ones on the market that are worthwhile are very expensive, or might only support one type of reel:

https://anglers-time.com/en/2487/

"Numbers for Winding Line on a Spool
So far, we have written that when winding line on a reel, while applying tension, thermal measures are necessary to prevent damage to the line. If too much load is applied to the line to be used, damage will be caused when the line is wound. There is a suitable load depending on the strength of the line. Studio Ocean Mark recommends that the number of line size x 0.7 = the number of kg to be set. For example, a No. 4 PE line would be 4 x 0.7 = 2.8 kg. This value is said to be appropriate without causing any trouble and without reducing line strength.

Incidentally, when winding line onto the reel spool, the line is first set in the line winding factory, at which point the line release value is measured with a scale (drag checker is recommended) and set. After that, the line is reeled in."

I had read a post by Alan where he discussed his conversations with Jerry Brown (great post btw Alan!) and in that, there is mention that the line would be factory spooled at 2 lbs of tension.  So i guess i also have a question to folks in terms of if you have run into issues with line digging with a factory spool ever?  i have heard of folks taking a bulk factory spool and winding a portion of line as an intermediary step to tighten the line before actually spooling your reel - would folks consider that overkill, or potentially worth while? part of the uncertainty for me here (and comes from lack of experience i'm sure, gotta start somewhere) is why i sought out the line tensioner with the rollers and rubber gasket as it doesn't apply additional tension to the line being pulled from the factory spool)

*side note, in regards to reeling line on with a spinning reel - it's really not adequate; it's either not good for the reel itself (since spin design, the power comes in lifting the rod where as conventional you have more cranking power), or the reel might not be sufficient to reel under the applied tension when spooling. just wanted to bring that back to why i wanted to work on a design for spin specifically.  end product for spin would ideally resemble the following with the goal of being driven by a speed control motor(conventional referenced on page 1, would be drill powered for now):



*I don't have a picture but there is a hex bolt supporting the larger plate on my current rig that is the primary driver for turning the spool - i use a cordless drill and a 3/4" nut attachment to turn.

one dilemma i have is working out the kinks in figuring out find the pieces that would work for the AC motor with the primary difference of a mandrel running through the spool in the picture refenced above, and the current design relying solely on compression.  *i have not had any issues with the compression aspect of the design, rather i just would prefer the slimmer design with the AC motor, which would require a mandrel to create the compression.

i personally don't mind having two independent rigs to support both spin and conventional and found it easier than trying to mimic existing designs of the busted fishing linewinder or triangle sport lindwinder for a few references (these rigs you can change out components to swap from spin to conventional and vise versa) *i do like these designs as well and would say they're worth checking out.) *SCT also makes a nice versatile product

BF:



spooled up:

*line spool holder with mag brake for heavy conventional line/tension.



just a little something extra, in my research i found a few other custom rigs out there and wanted to share as they're also things of beauty:



J - I have some research ahead of me that is for sure! appreciate the additional insight.  still learning here, but gathering that every reel spooling situation will be unique whether it be due to the reel design, line type, line manufacturer, type of fishing you'll be doing etc.  I do believe it's necessary to have higher loads for the cow tuna lol and fortunately get to fish new england waters (ri guy here) so that ultimately is the goal.

i don't know how studio ocean determined their formula but to your points, it's something i should probably understand deeper as to how they came up with it. i'm just gathering as much info as i can and trying to review/analyze what's out there, what variances there might be (i think folks will always debate the best way of doing something but it's the conversations in my opinion that are the most valuable).

[Keta]

I might go up to 10% of stated breaking strengthening , but the cow tuna chasers like an even higher number.  I am skeptical about this being necessary, but I don't chase cow tuna, so I wouldn't listen to me  when it comes to packing that big gold two speed,

I have caught more than a few cows, if something can go wrong it eventually will and the last thing I want when pulling 30+ pounds of drag is for my line to dig in and snap. 25% of the breaking strength should be minimum for plus size fish on 80# and up gear.  However Jerry told me that 10# of tension was enough.  BTW, the nice YT (48#) I caught in October made several runs against 30# of drag.

[jurelometer]

I'm finally back home/have access to the computer, etc.

here is the source for a lot of the inspired / engineered parts of the design, as well as some of the ideology behind the tensioning method and method of spooling.  i do believe there are multiple ways of achieving the same end goal, that is a properly spooled reel for the type of fishing you're doing and all the ones on the market that are worthwhile are very expensive, or might only support one type of reel:

https://anglers-time.com/en/2487/

"Numbers for Winding Line on a Spool
So far, we have written that when winding line on a reel, while applying tension, thermal measures are necessary to prevent damage to the line. If too much load is applied to the line to be used, damage will be caused when the line is wound. There is a suitable load depending on the strength of the line. Studio Ocean Mark recommends that the number of line size x 0.7 = the number of kg to be set. For example, a No. 4 PE line would be 4 x 0.7 = 2.8 kg. This value is said to be appropriate without causing any trouble and without reducing line strength.

Incidentally, when winding line onto the reel spool, the line is first set in the line winding factory, at which point the line release value is measured with a scale (drag checker is recommended) and set. After that, the line is reeled in."

Snip..

i don't know how studio ocean determined their formula but to your points, it's something i should probably understand deeper as to how they came up with it. i'm just gathering as much info as i can and trying to review/analyze what's out there, what variances there might be (i think folks will always debate the best way of doing something but it's the conversations in my opinion that are the most valuable).

Thanks!

Their text looks like to me like more nonsense trying to sound impressive.

I doubt that Ocean Mark did any rigorous testing of their device with different brands/products, PE sizes and load tensions to come up with an optimal load tension that doesn't bind and minimizes weakening the line on the reel over time.  A sufficient level of accurate repeatable tests is too expensive for the amount of product that they can move in such a limited market. They probably got their number from a line manufacturer (who might own the spinning machines but doesn't make the fibers) who is probably guessing like the rest of us.

I have seen nominal test for PE 4 labeled anywhere between 40 to 67 lbs.  so 6.8 kg loading tension is about 10 to 15% of test which seems about the high end of the range that most folk shoot for that are paying attention  to tension. 

Like Lee, I have caught some larger yellowtail, grouper and amberjack with drag in the mid to high twenties, and have not had PE 4 braid dig in (except for the line that was cast- nothing you can do about that). This is with a fill tension around 4 kilos.

Alan has done a ton of big game reels with a very tight tension, and his customers are using these to chase big tuna.  Lee has firsthand experience as well.  So their "guesses" might not match the optimal tradeoff, but I believe that nobody knows what the optimal tradeoff is.  We do know that their choice seems to work pretty well for their purpose.

 I had a longer PM exchange with Alan on what I read about PE line failure from scientific sources.  I'll see if I can dig it up and maybe post it in a new thread, so I don't take this one too much farther off topic.

-J

[Mpyeti]

I might go up to 10% of stated breaking strengthening , but the cow tuna chasers like an even higher number.  I am skeptical about this being necessary, but I don't chase cow tuna, so I wouldn't listen to me  when it comes to packing that big gold two speed,

I have caught more than a few cows, if something can go wrong it eventually will and the last thing I want when pulling 30+ pounds of drag is for my line to dig in and snap. 25% of the breaking strength should be minimum for plus size fish on 80# and up gear.  However Jerry told me that 10# of tension was enough.  BTW, the nice YT (48#) I caught in October made several runs against 30# of drag.

very nice work here - one thing i'll add is that what i've noticed is when fighting these pelagics on spin gear, over the course of a fight of a real nice fish/or a few solid ones you effectively re wind the line over that duration and it's varied in tension as there isn't any way to be consistent while fighting a fish.. i have spoke to some folks who recommend unwinding and rewinding a spool after working through a couple good fish.  i am of the same line of thought in terms of mitigating any aspects of technical failure/issues where possible.  I don't get to go too often so it's about maximizing opportunities even if the details are small (even stuff like iso'ing your leader, folks would be surprised how much diesel engines will cloud up your line on the ride out, not so much with standard outboards in my experience however).  i would also say it's worth at least examining your line after every fish, even on conventional although you can wind the line back with proper tension when fighting a giant BFT on a 130, but alas in reducing chances for failure i know some guys that change their topshot after 1 or 2 fish (to each their own there).

Alan is always on point so i'll also just reference what he said in this thread earlier  - stated that he uses 25lbs of tension for 130s. my point here is again it's really situational in that you need to look at all your factors, but probably the most important is the spooling tension in relation to the amount of drag you're actually going to be utilizing.  it's an extreme analogy but you could wind on 100lb braid to a 130 with virtually no tension and fish for a seabass without issue.. i'm generally looking to target the "over" class rec BFT at 47"-72" range and applying similar drag pressures to Keta

[Mpyeti]

I'm finally back home/have access to the computer, etc.

here is the source for a lot of the inspired / engineered parts of the design, as well as some of the ideology behind the tensioning method and method of spooling.  i do believe there are multiple ways of achieving the same end goal, that is a properly spooled reel for the type of fishing you're doing and all the ones on the market that are worthwhile are very expensive, or might only support one type of reel:

https://anglers-time.com/en/2487/

"Numbers for Winding Line on a Spool
So far, we have written that when winding line on a reel, while applying tension, thermal measures are necessary to prevent damage to the line. If too much load is applied to the line to be used, damage will be caused when the line is wound. There is a suitable load depending on the strength of the line. Studio Ocean Mark recommends that the number of line size x 0.7 = the number of kg to be set. For example, a No. 4 PE line would be 4 x 0.7 = 2.8 kg. This value is said to be appropriate without causing any trouble and without reducing line strength.

Incidentally, when winding line onto the reel spool, the line is first set in the line winding factory, at which point the line release value is measured with a scale (drag checker is recommended) and set. After that, the line is reeled in."

Snip..

i don't know how studio ocean determined their formula but to your points, it's something i should probably understand deeper as to how they came up with it. i'm just gathering as much info as i can and trying to review/analyze what's out there, what variances there might be (i think folks will always debate the best way of doing something but it's the conversations in my opinion that are the most valuable).

Thanks!

Their text looks like to me like more nonsense trying to sound impressive.

I doubt that Ocean Mark did any rigorous testing of their device with different brands/products, PE sizes and load tensions to come up with an optimal load tension that doesn't bind and minimizes weakening the line on the reel over time.  A sufficient level of accurate repeatable tests is too expensive for the amount of product that they can move in such a limited market. They probably got their number from a line manufacturer (who might own the spinning machines but doesn't make the fibers) who is probably guessing like the rest of us.

I have seen nominal test for PE 4 labeled anywhere between 40 to 67 lbs.  so 6.8 kg loading tension is about 10 to 15% of test which seems about the high end of the range that most folk shoot for that are paying attention  to tension. 

Like Lee, I have caught some larger yellowtail, grouper and amberjack with drag in the mid to high twenties, and have not had PE 4 braid dig in (except for the line that was cast- nothing you can do about that). This is with a fill tension around 4 kilos.

Alan has done a ton of big game reels with a very tight tension, and his customers are using these to chase big tuna.  Lee has firsthand experience as well.  So their "guesses" might not match the optimal tradeoff, but I believe that nobody knows what the optimal tradeoff is.  We do know that their choice seems to work pretty well for their purpose.

 I had a longer PM exchange with Alan on what I read about PE line failure from scientific sources.  I'll see if I can dig it up and maybe post it in a new thread, so I don't take this one too much farther off topic.

-J

yes please send me whatever you're able to find - i am definitely a data guy myself and will not deny the facts.  everyone ties different knots, has different methods of seating their knots, some use hollowcore, some use braid of the same test etc and might opt for a bimini over a splice loop for different reasons (could come down to the type of fishing i.e. jigging or casting for pelagics) and am most interested in how folks are testing for their numbers.  it does seem there isn't a ton of readily available information that addresses all aspects to spooling line for offshore (it does somewhat make sense as technology is really ramping up and the advent of folks fishing for larger species on these lighter rigs is rather new still).

I haven't yet really seen any stats on line where some really precise instruments or measuring processes were utilized so if you do have that - i'd love to see it.  what i'm talking about effectively is the use of stuff like a black max acculine tester; scalemaster II; or any additional 'lab' grade equipment that would otherwise be needed to have truly accurate representations of numbers (stuff like this):



i don't think you need to do extensive testing once you know what you're working with and can get dialed in obviously and i'm learning that i should look a little further than just relying on a single formula to help determine tension and it's true a lot of folks get by today with more traditional methods of spooling, or not "overthinking" stuff haha but to be redundant - if you can improve upon the process in any way then you should in my mind.

[Mpyeti]

* i will also just add that there are all these different lines on the market these days, whether it's different types of braid, dacron, etc so just reiterating that i still have some work ahead of me in fully understanding each scenario you might encounter.

also just wanted to share a file that i've been working on with a buddy; he started collecting some raw data and i assisted with formatting it into a spreadsheet.  he started collecting data on various lines in the market via various sources, now the data itself is either sourced from other folks, or tested himself with a crane scale so i can't really speak to the true validity of the numbers but figure it's worth sharing. 

Edit - i'm actually not sure how, or if i can share excel files but if anyone knows i'm all ears

[Mpyeti]

just sharing the schematic for the line tensioner - was able to dig it out of my folder..

[boon]

JMO but you guys are massively overthinking this. As long as you spool with enough tension that line doesn't slip on the spool or dig in then you're gonna be fine. For years I spooled my reels with the extremely advanced technique of "shove a screwdriver through the bulk spool then grip the edge of it with a tea-towel" and I have literally never had a problem with line digging in while fighting a fish.

Your carefully applied tension goes out the window the first time you wind in your line without a fish on the end, anyway.

[Mpyeti]

JMO but you guys are massively overthinking this. As long as you spool with enough tension that line doesn't slip on the spool or dig in then you're gonna be fine. For years I spooled my reels with the extremely advanced technique of "shove a screwdriver through the bulk spool then grip the edge of it with a tea-towel" and I have literally never had a problem with line digging in while fighting a fish.

Your carefully applied tension goes out the window the first time you wind in your line without a fish on the end, anyway.

i used to think similarly until i started getting more exposure to fishing offshore/for pelagics.. and sure for the majority of anglers and the types of fishing out there it could be considered overkill but this is also part of the learning process.  i'd say it's important to understand proper tensioning while considering factors like the diameter of your line and the intended drag pressure you're going to be utilizing while fighting a fish.

regarding the bit about losing the carefully applied tension, i disagree there - if you're jigging for instance in new england waters it'll generally be around 150ft of depth (granted a fish could hit your jig anywhere in the water column) - and bites generally come closer to the bottom and so through each drop and retrieve you're only working with that approximate 150 ft of line and once the fish hits your jig and begins to run, it is at that point which additional line past the 150 ft of working line begins to leave the spool (which would be properly packed for withstanding the high drag pressure)

while my focus today is light tackle spin for rec bluefin, i also have plans to work up to supporting 130s, etc. as the type of fishing i'm generally doing is either for rec tuna or commercial tuna (i'll end up assisting on a commercial guy's boat for the day when the opportunity presents itself).  to that point, i've got a group of guys who look to have their reels serviced, spooled, etc. and have kind of been growing into that supporting role.

here are a few examples of poorly spooled reels and the resulting consequences:

*notice how the line is trapped and caught in the center of the spool






now pictured above are all examples of conventionals, but issue can persist on any type of reel and in working through some trial and error on my own what i've also experienced is that for spinning reels specifically, the spinning reels themselves cannot generate enough cranking power to properly reel line on for what i need; furthermore, if you were to attempt to wind line on, a reel like a stella or equal quality may be one of the only few you could actually get by with reeling the line on manually as what i've seen is that the tolerances on any less quality reels than that cause for improper line lay (coning of the line towards one end of the spool).

[alantani]

i see this all the time.  if you hook into something big, the line will peel out, dig in, lock and snap.  yup, all the time.  for me,  figure out what the drag at strike will be, then i set the line tensioner to 2/3rds of the drag strength and load the line under that amount of tension. 

as an example, i would typically load a 100 pound line class reel like a penn international 30 with 100 pound hollow core braid and a 100 pound mono or fluoro topshot.  i would want a 30 pound (30%) drag at strike.  to load the braid, i would set the line tensioner to 20 pounds using a scale.  it's probably more than is needed, but at least i know that the braid will not dig in.