Stand Up Roller Wraps

[MexicanGulf]

Hey everyone,
I've been a fisherman my whole life but I'm completely new to the world of rod building, specifically for stand up tuna gear. It's a total dream of mine to learn how to build my own custom rods, but I'll be honest, it's been tough figuring it out on my own.
I've been studying a ton of builders on Instagram and YouTube (a lot of you West Coast guys are legends, by the way). I'm trying to absorb everything I can, but one thing has me scratching my head.
I'm seeing a bunch of different techniques for wrapping roller guides. Some guys do a triple wrap with a underwrap, some do a double, and some just do a single wrap straight onto the blank.
As a total beginner, my instinct says more is better. A triple wrap with a solid underwrap seems like it would be the strongest and best way to isolate the guide from the blank. But obviously, the pros know what they're doing, so I know I'm missing something.
So I'm hoping you all can school me. What's the reasoning behind choosing one method over the others? Is it about blank material, drag pressure, the specific fish you're targeting, or just personal preference?
Any insight you guys could offer would be hugely appreciated. I'm just trying to learn. Thanks in advance for your help.

Tight lines

[Swami805]

I usually do 1 under wrap and 2 over the guide feet. That's pretty standard. You can do more over wraps but I don't think it's necessary

[oldmanjoe]

Hey everyone,

 one thing has me scratching my head.
I'm seeing a bunch of different techniques for wrapping roller guides. Some guys do a triple wrap with a underwrap, some do a double, and some just do a single wrap straight onto the blank.
As a total beginner, my instinct says more is better. A triple wrap with a solid underwrap seems like it would be the strongest and best way to isolate the guide from the blank. But obviously, the pros know what they're doing, so I know I'm missing something.
So I'm hoping you all can school me. What's the reasoning behind choosing one method over the others? Is it about blank material, drag pressure, the specific fish you're targeting, or just personal preference?
Any insight you guys could offer would be hugely appreciated. I'm just trying to learn. Thanks in advance for your help.

Tight lines

Born in a family fishing charter boat , I did the maintenance and restore of the 20 fishing rods on board .   Back than we still liked bamboo and fiberglass rods . Guides were mass produced , the feet on the guides were wide and unfinished . So for production purposes , underlayer were the normal to help stop chaffing the stick and give a little more stability for the guide .  Oil varnish was the sealer for thread work , and needed touch ups during the year . 

I will do underwraps for the purpose of looks and to stiffing up a stick if it is to wimpy .

For the new rod builders , practice on old sticks , to develop muscle memory and style .  It does take time to learn all the little trick to build a fishing rod .

[jurelometer]

Underwraps provide a surface that can compress a bit, which helps distribute the load from the guide foot over a larger surface area on the blank.  The bottom of the foot is not a perfect match for the  shape of the blank, and the blank will also be bending under load. But underwraps also add weight an increase blank stiffness.

The higher  the rod load rating, the more that the tradeoffs  favor underwrapping.

The thickness of the underwrap is combination of thread diameter and number of layers.  Undoubtably, there is a point of overkill, and some rod builders will go there and beyond in the hopes of building a "better" rod (three layers of "D" thread...really?). I am not a big game guy, so I can't offer an opinion on where to draw the line. I have only wrapped two rods (fiberglass) with rollers.  I used a single layer of D thread, and nothing bad happened.

You should apply at least some finish to the underwrap at each layer to help it adhere to the blank or previous layer. Builders have varying opinions about how much to coat underwraps, but they seem mostly concerned with cosmetic issues.  It is a bit more tricky to get a nice clean over wrap compared to wrapping straight onto the blank.

Buildings a functional rod is fairly easy.  Especially with foam grips.  You need to use high quality epoxies of the right type  (no 5-minute epoxy - except maybe for the tip guide) and make sure that you get good coverage, especially with the reel seat.  Avoid using masking tape arbors under the reel seat.

Use the classic combination nylon thread and epoxy thread finish.  These hold the guides well, but you can still strip the thread off the blank if a guide ever needs replacement.

A functional rod is easy to build.  The works of art that we see from some of the builders here take practice and some talent.  It is unlikely that your first build will be satisfactory if you are aiming for something pretty and well executed. Starting out with a lesser build, or simply rewrapping some inexpensive rods thst you find lying around is a good place to start.

Hope this helps,

-J

[Swami805]

Remember this is a hobby so treat it that way. If you don't enjoy it and it's just a chore or trying to save a few bucks maybe pay someone to do it. Life is short
There's 2 schools of thought on finishes and how they're applied. Some like using color preserver and applying finish after every layer. Others believe no color preserver and applying finish in one shot so all the tread is soaked with finish giving it a better bond   Personally I see the point of saturating the entire guide wrap but I think it's plenty strong doing it layer but layer. Try pulling a guide off with vice grips even on a cheap rod, it's not easy
Like every thing practice makes perfect

[Keta]

If this is for your 30# rod I would do a under wrap and one overwrap.

[MexicanGulf]

Just another 12 hours of work and I'll be free to read all your valuable comments. Forgive me for missing out. I have very busy work days. Tomorrow I'll read everything with obsessive attention.

[JasonGotaProblem]

I'm gonna throw an opinion out there that might be unpopular.

A lot of things in the fishing world, especially in rod building, are done a certain way because that's what buyers are expecting to see, not necessarily because it's the absolute optimum arrangement of components.

Aside from decorating, the function of under wraps is to protect a thin-walled blank from having the guide (which was ground to a sharp point) from cutting in to the blank under heavy load, especially the old bamboo blanks. The first over-wrap obviously holds the guide in place. The second one is there so if something scratches the guide wrap, it won't fall off because there's another layer. As joe pointed out, it originated in the era of oil varnish, which wasn't very thick. Now we see high-build epoxy on guides, and that protects the wraps quite well.

With all that said, you spoke in a previous thread about single foot roller guides. That presents a crossroads of sorts where decisions need to be made. Roller guides are kind of anachronistic in the era of high performance ceramics. If you're building with rollers, it's because you want to build with rollers. But that's ok. Fishing decisions are rarely dictated by an actual NEED. It's about how we WANT to fish.

What's my point? It's that you're deciding to do something old-fashioned because that's what you want. You have to then decide if you want to something fully old fashioned, which would mean under wrap and double over wrap, or do you want to do a modern build with old fashioned components? I'm in the process currently of planning the opposite (an old fashioned  build with modern components) and it'll be a lot of fun.

But please, do better than me and follow the advice given above. DO NOT BUILD THIS AS YOUR VERY FIRST ROD. Try to do a few practice builds or rebuilds with cheaper and simpler rods before you try to build a rod with the expensive components you described. I didn't listen. And as I got a tiny bit better at rod building I HATED those first couple rods because I was ashamed at the poor quality of their assembly. It was a shame that the fanciest things I owned were the ones I didn't ever wanna use. I ended up stripping them down and starting over from scratch. Doing that with double over wraps and under wraps would be miserable. So get some practice first.
I've built a lot of rods. Not as many as joe or Sheridan, but a lot. This has been a bad year for me, I haven't built anything in about 6 months. So when I get my workshop back in order I plan to do a couple practice wraps (that I'll cut off) before I start on a rod I care about, because even a few months is enough to get rusty.

[Keta]

X2

[oldmanjoe]

  I still practice with dowel wood rod for paint color and what trim wrap colors and widths look like before I put it on fishing rod .

[Brewcrafter]

Lots of good advice there.  I have only replaced a guide twice.  First time took 3 tries before I was happy that it didn't look out of place with the rest of the factory wraps.  Second rod took two tries (wrap was OK, more of an aestetic thing - I am mildly colorblind and the thread I thought was the right color - was not the right color and it bothered me.  Then I did what I should have done the first time: took the rod section with me to Squidco in San Diego (nice folks) and the staff immediately gave me a spool of what I needed.)  Moral of the story - trust the experts as you learn! - john

[jurelometer]

Regarding color "preservative":  It is not a dye bonding treatment.  You are basically coating the wraps with a sealant to prevent the epoxy from penetrating into the thread. This keeps the wraps more opaque,  but also weakens the bond, preventing the thread and epoxy finish from fully forming a composite material (not unlike fiberglass weave and resin).  This becomes more important as you add more thread layers.

There are plenty of well performing rods out there that were finished using CP, so it is possible to use CP and still have plenty of  residual strength.  But you are trading off some structural strength for cosmetics, which should be an intentional decision.

Plus many of us actually prefer the look of some translucence in the wraps.  Your rod, your choice.

-J