Stand Up Roller Wraps

[MexicanGulf]

I'm gonna throw an opinion out there that might be unpopular.

A lot of things in the fishing world, especially in rod building, are done a certain way because that's what buyers are expecting to see, not necessarily because it's the absolute optimum arrangement of components.

Aside from decorating, the function of under wraps is to protect a thin-walled blank from having the guide (which was ground to a sharp point) from cutting in to the blank under heavy load, especially the old bamboo blanks. The first over-wrap obviously holds the guide in place. The second one is there so if something scratches the guide wrap, it won't fall off because there's another layer. As joe pointed out, it originated in the era of oil varnish, which wasn't very thick. Now we see high-build epoxy on guides, and that protects the wraps quite well.  I push myself beyond the imposed limit.

With all that said, you spoke in a previous thread about single foot roller guides. That presents a crossroads of sorts where decisions need to be made. Roller guides are kind of anachronistic in the era of high performance ceramics. If you're building with rollers, it's because you want to build with rollers. But that's ok. Fishing decisions are rarely dictated by an actual NEED. It's about how we WANT to fish.

What's my point? It's that you're deciding to do something old-fashioned because that's what you want. You have to then decide if you want to something fully old fashioned, which would mean under wrap and double over wrap, or do you want to do a modern build with old fashioned components? I'm in the process currently of planning the opposite (an old fashioned  build with modern components) and it'll be a lot of fun.

My choice to use roller guides is strictly linked to technical factors. Rollers don't wear out nylon and I have a very unique personal fishing style.I bring the reel Drag load, fighting Drag to 50 of the breaking strain of the nylon line class.It is absolutely not recommended to use ring guides. The rule of thumb is 1/3 of the drag.

[Keta]

If this is for your 30# rod I would do a under wrap and one overwrap.

Could you describe what you mean by under wrap and overwrap?

One wrap on the blank and one wrap on the guide foot.

[MexicanGulf]

If this is for your 30# rod I would do a under wrap and one overwrap.

Could you describe what you mean by under wrap and overwrap?

One wrap on the blank and one wrap on the guide foot.

Thanks for the clarification, but unfortunately I'm new to rod building. Please bear with me... 🙏

[jurelometer]

Underwraps provide a surface that can compress a bit, which helps distribute the load from the guide foot over a larger surface area on the blank.  The bottom of the foot is not a perfect match for the  shape of the blank, and the blank will also be bending under load. But underwraps also add weight an increase blank stiffness.

The higher  the rod load rating, the more that the tradeoffs  favor underwrapping.

The thickness of the underwrap is combination of thread diameter and number of layers.  Undoubtably, there is a point of overkill, and some rod builders will go there and beyond in the hopes of building a "better" rod (three layers of "D" thread...really?). I am not a big game guy, so I can't offer an opinion on where to draw the line. I have only wrapped two rods (fiberglass) with rollers.  I used a single layer of D thread, and nothing bad happened.

You should apply at least some finish to the underwrap at each layer to help it adhere to the blank or previous layer. Builders have varying opinions about how much to coat underwraps, but they seem mostly concerned with cosmetic issues.  It is a bit more tricky to get a nice clean over wrap compared to wrapping straight onto the blank.

Buildings a functional rod is fairly easy.  Especially with foam grips.  You need to use high quality epoxies of the right type  (no 5-minute epoxy - except maybe for the tip guide) and make sure that you get good coverage, especially with the reel seat.  Avoid using masking tape arbors under the reel seat.

Use the classic combination nylon thread and epoxy thread finish.  These hold the guides well, but you can still strip the thread off the blank if a guide ever needs replacement.

A functional rod is easy to build.  The works of art that we see from some of the builders here take practice and some talent.  It is unlikely that your first build will be satisfactory if you are aiming for something pretty and well executed. Starting out with a lesser build, or simply rewrapping some inexpensive rods thst you find lying around is a good place to start.

Hope this helps,

-J

How do you usually pick the thread diameter for a reinforcement wrap depending on the rod type and the expected load?
When do you think it's worth adding a second layer, and when is a single layer enough?
What kind of problems can come up if the wrap is too thick or has too many layers?
How does the wrap thickness affect how the load is distributed on the guide and the rod's feel when fishing?
Thanks in advance for any tips or experience you can share.

As Jason noted, there is a generally accepted way to build a rod of a certain type.  It is based mostly on tradition and a bit on customer feedback.  Testing to failure is extremely rare.  Some of the practices are clearly not the best.  But nevertheless, if you follow the standard practices, you will be a rod that will be as good as the rest of them.  If you hunt around a site like rodbuilding.org, you can get a good feel for what the standard practices are for the type of rod you are building.  You can also ask here once you have a specific rod in mind.

While the better blank manufacturers obsess over weight, flex, the amount of resin used, etc,  custom builders often  load up rod builds with long sections of multiple layers of decorative wraps- often all the way up to the firsts guide, multiple overly long guide wraps, and then slather huge amounts of epoxy over the whole thing.  As long as it is a trolling rod or a heavy casting rod, it will still work well enough, and many fishermen appreciate the artistry. No harm, no foul.

As the rods get lighter, this practice has a more negative effect on performance, especially for casting, especially when the excess weight on the tip contributes to momentum, causing the tip to oscillate more on cast release.  How much worse, I don't know, but the standard practice on light casting rods and fly rods is to use the shortest guide wraps possible with light ("A") thread and minimal epoxy  coating. At the other end of the spectrum with heavy trolling rods, you are only concerned with the guides coming loose.  There is no casting performance to effect, and the blank is already extremely stiff and heavy.

Guide will come loose one of three ways:

1.  Impact -  getting banged around during transit or use.

2. Pullouts - a knot or tangle catches on the guide wile under load -usually outbound.  This is especially a concern with single foot guides.

3.  Flex - As the rod bends and unbends, the shape and even the length of the blank under the guide changes, leading to fatigue in the thread/epoxy composite, eventually allowing the guide foot to work loose.  Nylon is inherently stretchy, and newer epoxy resins maintain their flexibility over time, so this is now much less of a concern.  UV damage over time is a concern here.

On your specific question: I can't help you with big game rods, but a single layer of D wrap is pretty common for most saltwater rods that get underwraps.  A single layer for the over-the-guide wrap is typical, but double wraps are not uncommon for rods that target larger fish (maybe yellowfin tuna over 100 lbs).  Even if the extra top wrap is unnecessary for strength, it does protect the lower layer from UV damage.

How tight you wrap will contribute more to strength and durability than the number of layers. Larger diameter thread will allow you generate more clamping load, giving you a greater margin of safety over time -but only  if you wrap tightly. Many builders prefer to wrap on the loose side as it makes it easier to fine tune guide alignment and smooth out gaps in the wraps for cosmetic reasons.

You can wrap too tightly- leading to creep in the nylon, but it is difficult to wrap with this level of tension.  I shoot for tight enough that it is difficult to slide the underwraps on the blank, and very difficult to impossible to move the guide once wrapped but not epoxied.  I am probably  an outlier, but my guides always stay in place.My wraps look decent, but are not the prettiest.


There also seems to be a trend to use lighter threads on larger rods to achieve better appearance. One compromise  that I have seen a bit is to use "A" for the underwrap, and then a layer or two of "D" over the guides.  I don't have firsthand experience here.  My builds all try to optimize functionality.  I am building tools, not works of art. On the other hand- these pretty rods wrapped with lighter thread from good builders seem to work just fine.  They are just working with a somewhat smaller margin of error.

With single foot guides, many builders extend the wrap to go past the foot to help resist-pull outs.

After general durability, guide placement (spacing) probably is the most important consideration, and is sometimes neglected.  The blank manufacturers often provide a recommendation, but this is only accurate if you are using the same components, reel seat location, expected reel spool height, etc.  If you are selecting a builder, asking about how they determine guide placement will give you some insight on how serious the builder is about performance. There are different methods, but the better ones at least bend the blank to full useful load and space the guides to properly distribute the load and keep the line off the blank for the reel that you plan to use.

Most of us learned on our own. Some builders informally apprenticed under another builder.  With the exception of bamboo rod building, I have not heard of any  classes in the USA beyond fairly rudimentary introductory stuff.There are probably some out there, but it is not the typical way to learn.

Hope this helps,

-J

[Keta]

Mudhole and others have tutorials on YouTube but all I have seen are in English.

[oldmanjoe]

  Well I will give this a shot ,