Springer knot...heavy line only?

[Jim O]

I watched the video with Capt. John Collins demonstrating this knot, and I would like to know exactly why it's not recommended for line under say #80 test.  If you used it for #30-40 test, why would that be a problem?  The simplicity of the knot is what I like.  Some recommend adding a third wrap, but it's still a very simple knot.

[quang tran]

For small line there are many knots that strong but are too bulky to tie heavy line . This knot design to tie heavy line and create a smaller knot ,acceptable strong

[Jim O]

For small line there are many knots that strong but are too bulky to tie heavy line . This knot design to tie heavy line and create a smaller knot ,acceptable strong

I understand why it is used for heavy line. I want to understand why no one uses it for lighter (#30-40 test) line. 

[Keta]

Try it, they slip, I have no idea why but they do.  It is a interesting knot.

[Jim O]

Try it, they slip, I have no idea why but they do.  It is a interesting knot.

But they don't slip on heavy line, right?  Weird.

Lee, what are you using for your braid to mono knot?  I've been practicing the SD Knot these last few days for hooks....  Got it down pretty well.  Now I need to learn a braid to mono knot.  I'm thinking I'll learn the RP knot, unless you think there might be a better one.

[Keta]

Try it, they slip, I have no idea why but they do.  It is a interesting knot.

But they don't slip on heavy line, right?  Weird.

Lee, what are you using for your braid to mono knot?  I've been practicing the SD Knot these last few days for hooks....  Got it down pretty well.  Now I need to learn a braid to mono knot.  I'm thinking I'll learn the RP knot, unless you think there might be a better one.

I build my own loop to loop topshots so no help here.   

[MarkT]

Surface area in contact within the knot? Many knots use fewer turns with heavy line than with lighter. Same reason?

[Keta]

I would guess you are right Mark  but there is not much contact surface with a springer not.

[jurelometer]

The RP knot is a great knot for connecting braid to mono.  Just a make sure that you snap it snug as as is done in the Royal Polaris video.

As long as you trim the mono super close to the knot, you can even cast with it.

When I tie it, I find it breaks at about 70% of the listed braid strength very consistently.  Right at the knot.  That is harder than you are ever going to be pulling on the fish, and if you snag and need to break off, you won't leave a bunch of braid in the water. 

A lot of folk like the FG knots and similar.  They are stronger, at least when freshly tied correctly.  These knots can come unraveled  if you cast a bunch, so you need to keep an eye on the them.  Since there is no bend in the mono, they do cast a bit better, especially if you are running the knot through a levelwind during the cast.

The best knot for you is not the theoretically strongest knot.  It is the knot that you personally can get consistent results on that breaks at the load that you want.  There will always be a weakest link in the system, and I prefer to manage where that link is.


If you are long ranging - a lot of those guys prefer spliced hollow braided loops on both the mono leader and the braided mainline , connecting via loop to loop as Lee mentioned.  This gets you right around 100% if done correctly. 

Even if you opt for the loop system, it is useful to know  a knot that  you can tie quickly if your braid gets sawed off.  The RP is a great candidate here.

-J

[jurelometer]

As to why a knot might work in some line sizes but not others, there are plenty of knots that require a different number of wraps depending on the diameter and hardness.

A knot holds by friction.  You get some of the friction from compressive load, and some by a bit of deformation in the line at a bend (especially in mono).  But the load has to be distributed and the deformation managed so that you strike a balance between slipping and shearing.

I agree that it seems that if the material is the same, that the knot would scale  with diameter. But this is not the case for a bunch of knots.  I am also curious as to why. Maybe it has something to do with breaking strength increasing at a faster rate as diameter increases?

-J

[Jim O]

I just  did a quick test on 15-lb Izor XXX. (I will repeat with 20 and 30-lb line tomorrow ). Anyway, I used a 15-lb barbell weight with a zip tie looped through the middle. I took about 2.5' of the line and tied a single hook to one end with the SD knot. To the other end I tied another hook with the 3-wrap Springer knot.

The first test, I hooked the SD hook around the zip tie, and the 3-wrap Springer around the handle of a wire cutter. I lifted the wire cutter straight up. The weight cleared the ground for about 6-seconds before I set it back down. Neither knot slipped, nor did the line break. (I believe Izorline tests higher than it's rating).

I then switched the piece of line around so the 3-wrap Springer hook was around the zip tie, the SD hook around the wire cutter handle. Same result. I even held the weight off the ground a little longer and gave it a swing.

If there's a flaw in my quick test here, tell me, because I'm going to repeat it with 20 and 30-lb line.

[rogan]

Jim, You are doing two very important things:

1. practicing your knots
2. testing your knots

These two things are the most important when it comes to knot trying. All that matters is what you can do with the materials you have available in the conditions you are going to fish. Don't get me wrong, I watch and read what others are doing, but then I test out these other options to see if I can make them my own. It doesn't matter which knot really has the ultimate strength if it's a knot that I can't tie well, or I am unable to tie while on the water with cold, wet and tired hands in low light conditions (or without cheater glasses), or I have to tie with different materials because my luggage got lost and I buy local stuff which is different tham my normal stuff.

Case in point, I avoided the FG knot for several years. I watched three austrailian gents (three different videos) tie three different versions of the FG, and all of them said, "make the knot your own". After some trial and error, I was able to make a version using some info from all three gents. Last year at Cedros, I needed new leader on my trolling setup, so I tied my 65lb j-braid to 60lb fluro leader with my version of the FG, which requires me to use a lighter, after the knot is complete, to melt the end of the mono into a slightly larger diameter ball to ensure the braid doesn't slip off the end of the fluro. One of my fellow fisherman got very upset that I was putting a flame anywhere near the braid, but let me do what I wanted to do anyway. I practiced (and tested) this many times and had confidence in this exact set of materials, and I was tying the knot while sitting at a table in the lodge (ideal conditions). The next day, I landed and released a 140lb grouper using 22lb of drag in an 8 minute high intensity fight. I have very high regard for the angler who cautioned me on using the lighter and I employ many of the tips and suggestions he has given me over the years, but I had practiced and tested that method for a couple of weeks, dozens of knots, and felt very confident in my abilities.

I choose a different method for testing my knots. It has been suggested here that for tuna fishing your reel should be capable of 50% drag settings for the line weight you are using. In my testing of the above materials, I knew I would be using my Andros 12 with a strike setting of 20lbs and a max drag of 26 lbs using the above mentioned 65lb jbraid solid and 60lb fluro, which is below the 50% line rating of 60lbs. So when I tested my knots, I attached the braid to a metal shelf, tied the fluro to a 30lb weight, and let it hang for a minumum of 30 minutes. At least twice during this time limit, I would lightly move the weight side to side. My FG knots held the weight for 30 to 90 minutes without failure. For me, this is how I envision using the knot, in a protracted fight with a larger than expected sized fish. And for me, that actually happened and I landed the fish of a lifetime, my largest fish to date. Is my method an exact test? No, the line isn't wet, we aren't changing pressures/tensions on the line from the boats movement or the fish's surging attempts to get away, etc...  But it gave me the confidence that I can tie good knots in my chosen materials.

[boon]

Whenever I try a new knot, I tie a whole bunch of them and break them, look at how they fail and see if it's just how the knot fails or if I've made a mistake in how I tied it. When I first started using the FG knot I had a bunch fail by slipping off the end of the leader, made some changes to how I tie it and now they usually last until I cut them off because I've clipped the end off the leader so many times. Same with PR knots, my first 20 or so were terrible.

A less-good-performing knot tied perfectly is always better than a more optimised knot tied poorly. But also keep your mind open to new techniques - if you can get close to 100% knot strength it might mean you can fish a lighter mainline, which in turn might mean you can use lighter terminal tackle, which might be the difference between getting bit or not.

[Jim O]

Jim, You are doing two very important things:

1. practicing your knots
2. testing your knots

These two things are the most important when it comes to knot trying. All that matters is what you can do with the materials you have available in the conditions you are going to fish. Don't get me wrong, I watch and read what others are doing, but then I test out these other options to see if I can make them my own. It doesn't matter which knot really has the ultimate strength if it's a knot that I can't tie well, or I am unable to tie while on the water with cold, wet and tired hands in low light conditions (or without cheater glasses), or I have to tie with different materials because my luggage got lost and I buy local stuff which is different tham my normal stuff.

Case in point, I avoided the FG knot for several years. I watched three austrailian gents (three different videos) tie three different versions of the FG, and all of them said, "make the knot your own". After some trial and error, I was able to make a version using some info from all three gents. Last year at Cedros, I needed new leader on my trolling setup, so I tied my 65lb j-braid to 60lb fluro leader with my version of the FG, which requires me to use a lighter, after the knot is complete, to melt the end of the mono into a slightly larger diameter ball to ensure the braid doesn't slip off the end of the fluro. One of my fellow fisherman got very upset that I was putting a flame anywhere near the braid, but let me do what I wanted to do anyway. I practiced (and tested) this many times and had confidence in this exact set of materials, and I was tying the knot while sitting at a table in the lodge (ideal conditions). The next day, I landed and released a 140lb grouper using 22lb of drag in an 8 minute high intensity fight. I have very high regard for the angler who cautioned me on using the lighter and I employ many of the tips and suggestions he has given me over the years, but I had practiced and tested that method for a couple of weeks, dozens of knots, and felt very confident in my abilities.

I choose a different method for testing my knots. It has been suggested here that for tuna fishing your reel should be capable of 50% drag settings for the line weight you are using. In my testing of the above materials, I knew I would be using my Andros 12 with a strike setting of 20lbs and a max drag of 26 lbs using the above mentioned 65lb jbraid solid and 60lb fluro, which is below the 50% line rating of 60lbs. So when I tested my knots, I attached the braid to a metal shelf, tied the fluro to a 30lb weight, and let it hang for a minumum of 30 minutes. At least twice during this time limit, I would lightly move the weight side to side. My FG knots held the weight for 30 to 90 minutes without failure. For me, this is how I envision using the knot, in a protracted fight with a larger than expected sized fish. And for me, that actually happened and I landed the fish of a lifetime, my largest fish to date. Is my method an exact test? No, the line isn't wet, we aren't changing pressures/tensions on the line from the boats movement or the fish's surging attempts to get away, etc...  But it gave me the confidence that I can tie good knots in my chosen materials.

Since we cannot duplicate the violent thrashing of a fish, head shakes, sudden bursts of speed in a controlled environment, I'm not sure how much accurate, useful info we can actually get by any method other than actually having a fish on the line.  So, when Capt. John Collins says he has used that Springer Knot for x-years in real world conditions, without a single knot failure, the answer becomes relatively easy for me, at least for higher test line.  I do believe when I finally get on a LR trip, I will test the 3-wrap Springer knot in real world conditions, and have a clear answer that I can't get any other way.   

[MarkT]

The very first time I tied a Springer I cast out and caught a 298.8# YFT on 100#. Had a hook pull the next day on a similar size unit and the day after caught a 321# YFT. That sold me on the Springer for heavy line!