Setting your reel drag...Brian Nguyen

[Keta]

Being wrong and admitting it is called learning.

[JasonGotaProblem]

Re Dave's test. Why not the spring scale is fixed the rod (tip) starts a fixed distance away. Like 20' or so. A device like a winch pulls line out against the drag at a preset rate to where it can hook onto the scale. Reproducible and simple.

[oc1]

Here is a test to further confuse ya .  Take a weight and scale it . "I have 2.5 pounds with a digital scale  "  Now run a line down the guides of your stick , Tiegh  the weight and put a loop on the string at ,or near the reel seat so you can hook the scale to it . lift the weight flat stick and note the weight .  Now pick the stick to 80-85 degrees and note the weight . Why does it vary so much?

If I understand your test correctly, your question is answered in reply #23.  You are measuring the effect of leverage.   
On the main topic, leverage will not affect the drag setting vs measurement when the fish is continuously taking line.

-J

As I understand Joe's comparison, I do not think it is the effect of leverage.  If you were picking the rod up near striper guide you would get the same reading on the scale even though the leverage is completely different. The disparity has to be because of friction.

[boon]

Joe's example has the butt of the rod supported. Some of the weight is being supported by the ground, rather than exerting a force on the scales. This is not complex physics.

The other thing that's not complex physics is the change in drag due to you having line out, but I bet almost nobody is doing even simple mental arithmetic on that. You're virtually never hooking a fish with a completely full spool so what relevance is the drag at that point, unless you know how much line is out and the relative effect that has on the diameter of line remaining on the spool? I used to set my drags with a scale and get pretty high-tech about it, now I only do that with game rods and extremely light line when fishing in line-class competition. Everything else gets done by feel.

[oldmanjoe]

 I only know simple math , I played a lot of hookey in high school.
   My younger brother stopped by , so I asked and showed him what I was doing, he said my test results were correct .    In simple terms , the tip top is a pulley . The reel seat were I anchored the scale and the stick being close to 90 degrees , the load is distributed equally .  Booming down the load gets further from anchor point the scale will rise .

 He started talking in a foreign language , X components and y components ,theta . Made drawings of letters and numbers ,that looked like Albert Einstein`s  blackboard .

  So my conclusion is ,when you set drag with a scale .  The rod should be at the angle as it would be in a rod holder , and line pull like it would be used  weather bait fishing " straight up and down or the angle that the line is while trolling .

[jurelometer]

Joe's example has the butt of the rod supported. Some of the weight is being supported by the ground, rather than exerting a force on the scales. This is not complex physics.

If this is an accurate description, then Joe's test is not useful for this discussion for the reasons Boon has noted.

Try this: Hold a hold a 10 lb weight off the ground with a scale.  It will read 10 lbs.  This is what a strait pull through a non bent rod would be.

Now attach the rod butt to something fixed  with the rod at your preferred angle.  Thread the line  from the weight through the guides, hold the scale near the bottom guide, tie the scale to the line and pull on the scale until the weight is off the ground and the rod and weight are motionless.  It will reads 10 lbs.

Since there is  no static drag friction to overcome, this will show you that the angle of a non moving rod does not change the amount of effort from  the fish to take 10 lbs of resistance from the reel.  Which means that rod angle does not affect ongoing drag. Lifting or bending the rod might effect static(startup) drag, but that is about it.

If you can't  help yourself and just have  to know what the exact drag is when a tuna is running on a short line with a full spool(don't ask me why), set the drag with a straight pull.

The other thing that's not complex physics is the change in drag due to you having line out, but I bet almost nobody is doing even simple mental arithmetic on that. You're virtually never hooking a fish with a completely full spool so what relevance is the drag at that point, unless you know how much line is out and the relative effect that has on the diameter of line remaining on the spool? I used to set my drags with a scale and get pretty high-tech about it, now I only do that with game rods and extremely light line when fishing in line-class competition. Everything else gets done by feel.

YES!  YES!  We cannot emphasize this point too much.  Changes in effective spool diameter, line drag, drag fade, not even knowing the precise breaking point of the  line/knot system is, all make for a very imprecise environment. Attempting to be extremely precise about one variable (initial drag setting) buys you next to nothing.

If you want to learn how to  better use your drag to land big bluefin, it requires trial and error.  Yours, or someone else's.  I would suggest just learning from more experienced anglers on the initial (strike and max) settings used for the line class, and when they choose to ramp up and down during the fight. And don't forget to watch how they work the fish when it is not taking drag, and how their rigging is done. 

-J

[oldmanjoe]

Joe's example has the butt of the rod supported. Some of the weight is being supported by the ground, rather than exerting a force on the scales. This is not complex physics

  Just to be clear , the weight was dangling in the air .  Yes the pictures look different , but every bit on 1/2 inch off the ground .
  Have a fat finger video , after this was taken  I did retied the string because the weight was just kissing the ground .

[boon]

I'm going to do a poor job of describing this in simple terms.

When you directly lift the weight with the scales, 100% of the weight is being lifted by the scales, so you will see the, err, weight of the weight.

When you lift the weight through the rod with the scales pretending to be the reel, what you are seeing is the pulling force on the line required for that system to lift the weight. Some of the weight is being transferred to whatever is holding the rod up, for example. The simplest version of this I can think of is if you stand on a floor scale with both feet, or if you stand on it with one foot and put the other foot on the floor.

This is part of why scaling drags is a bit of a folly if what you care about is breaking your line, rather than setting the drag to a number you know the reel is comfortable producing.

[jurelometer]

I'm going to do a poor job of describing this in simple terms.

When you directly lift the weight with the scales, 100% of the weight is being lifted by the scales, so you will see the, err, weight of the weight.

When you lift the weight through the rod with the scales pretending to be the reel, what you are seeing is the pulling force on the line required for that system to lift the weight. Some of the weight is being transferred to whatever is holding the rod up, for example. The simplest version of this I can think of is if you stand on a floor scale with both feet, or if you stand on it with one foot and put the other foot on the floor.

This is part of why scaling drags is a bit of a folly if what you care about is breaking your line, rather than setting the drag to a number you know the reel is comfortable producing.

Maybe while you are lifting the rod.  But not if the rod is held steady. 

Let me try it this way:   Work = Force * Distance. If your drag is set to 10 lbs coming straight off the reel, and the fish pulls out 10 feet off the reel, that took 100 ft lbs of work leaving the reel (10lbs * 10ft ).

This amount of work will have to take place to pull 10 feet off the reel whether the rod is pointed directly at the fish or at an angle.  So if there is less or more force at the fish side during the pull, then the distance will have to change to make up the difference (Work = Force * Distance).  But the line is not going to allow the distance to change.  10 feet is 10 feet.

I finally realized that I have to either give up or do a demo to prove it.  But the garage is such a mess, if I don't crop the photo carefully, Fred would probably stage an intervention

Luckily (?) I had a freezer that just died as I was coming home with a load of chinook and halibut that I caught with  Todd (Hardy Boy).  The freezer made a perfect rod holder for the test, and you can't see the rest of the garage. Winning!!!   

First photo- dead lift (same as straightline drag test): 5.22 lbs



Second photo- line through the guides, rod at ~ 45 degrees with a bit of bend but not moving (same as a PROPER angled-rod drag test): 5.22 lbs




BTW:  A luggage scale makes a good cheap drag scale (although they don't capture the high point), and are also useful as luggage scales when you are travelling.
----------------------
Getting back to the video:

When you are actively lifting and bending the rod and dealing with static friction when attempting to get get a drag reading, things get a bit sloppier, and I am not going to venture to guess exactly what is happening there- maybe Boon's analogy applies here.  But if accuracy is really your thing, you probably want to do a long straight pull and take a reading from somewhere in the middle.  Which is the opposite of what the video is suggesting. 

Not that it really matters
-J

[Jim O]

I'm going to do a poor job of describing this in simple terms.

When you directly lift the weight with the scales, 100% of the weight is being lifted by the scales, so you will see the, err, weight of the weight.

When you lift the weight through the rod with the scales pretending to be the reel, what you are seeing is the pulling force on the line required for that system to lift the weight. Some of the weight is being transferred to whatever is holding the rod up, for example. The simplest version of this I can think of is if you stand on a floor scale with both feet, or if you stand on it with one foot and put the other foot on the floor.

This is part of why scaling drags is a bit of a folly if what you care about is breaking your line, rather than setting the drag to a number you know the reel is comfortable producing.

Maybe while you are lifting the rod.  But not if the rod is held steady. 

Let me try it this way:   Work = Force * Distance. If your drag is set to 10 lbs coming straight off the reel, and the fish pulls out 10 feet off the reel, that took 100 ft lbs of work leaving the reel (10lbs * 10ft ).

This amount of work will have to take place to pull 10 feet off the reel whether the rod is pointed directly at the fish or at an angle.  So if there is less or more force at the fish side during the pull, then the distance will have to change to make up the difference (Work = Force * Distance).  But the line is not going to allow the distance to change.  10 feet is 10 feet.

I finally realized that I have to either give up or do a demo to prove it.  But the garage is such a mess, if I don't crop the photo carefully, Fred would probably stage an intervention

Luckily (?) I had a freezer that just died as I was coming home with a load of chinook and halibut that I caught with  Todd (Hardy Boy).  The freezer made a perfect rod holder for the test, and you can't see the rest of the garage. Winning!!!   

First photo- dead lift (same as straightline drag test): 5.22 lbs



Second photo- line through the guides, rod at ~ 45 degrees with a bit of bend but not moving (same as a PROPER angled-rod drag test): 5.22 lbs




BTW:  A luggage scale makes a good cheap drag scale (although they don't capture the high point), and are also useful as luggage scales when you are travelling.
----------------------
Getting back to the video:

When you are actively lifting and bending the rod and dealing with static friction when attempting to get get a drag reading, things get a bit sloppier, and I am not going to venture to guess exactly what is happening there- maybe Boon's analogy applies here.  But if accuracy is really your thing, you probably want to do a long straight pull and take a reading from somewhere in the middle.  Which is the opposite of what the video is suggesting. 

Not that it really matters
-J

"...chinook and halibut"?  Oregon coast?

[jurelometer]

"...chinook and halibut"?  Oregon coast?

Vancouver Island