Triangular spinning guides?

[cbar45]

Just saw an advertisement for a stainless guide that looked like someone had taken a pair of channel-locks, and squeezed it into a triangular oval.

SeaGuide claims this "reduces line friction and improves overall line management as it spirals through the guides."

Only wish they had included a layman's depiction of the physics involved:

https://sea-guide.com/product/tyg/

[JasonGotaProblem]

Laymen's depiction of the physics involved often undercut the marketing claims and as such are omitted.

[Keta]

"New and Improved" often isn't.

[Midway Tommy]

They look like it could possibly make sense, at least to me anyway. From what I see they look a little wider on the sides and also a little taller over all, both where it matters, than a regular old round guide. The only way to really know would be to try a set on an identical combo to see if there's an improvement in casting accuracy and distance. I doubt one will notice much difference in a retrieve. They could be a new innovative cat's meow. 🤔

[Gfish]

I like the simple looking design. Durability is the thing for me. But I'm one who buy's mostly cheap rods, and replaces guides with any ol' salvaged ones that are close to right size and relatively smooth surfaced.

[cbar45]

I like the clean look, too. They remind me of Fuji's "power oval" guides that came out in the late 90's. These were supposedly for a niche market in Japan using long and limber rods, but I don't remember the exact science behind the oval shape and why it worked.

[MarkT]

I have a jig stick with power ovals.

[jurelometer]

These are described as spinning reel guides.  While we talk mostly about friction, the main loss of energy from guides is from the coils of line coming off the spool impacting the guide frames. 

The coils will be circular as they fly off the spool.  Modern guide/layout design leans toward "choking" off the coils with the first guide or two, to minimize the coils crashing into one frame after another.  I am also struggling to see how a teardrop shaped ring  is going to help in this regard. Maybe the theory is that it makes it more difficult for coils to reform.

When winding under load, the teardrop sharp would seem to contribute slightly more to twisting load when you re pulling sideways.

It is pretty lazy marketing to not even present the theoretical advantage, unless there isn't any.  It is also incredibly easy to actually test by pulling line though a guide train to simulate a cast and measure the difference.  You could do it well enough with a decent slingshot.  So the cynic in me speculates that there is not enough of an advantage in the design to be able to market it along those lines. But we could also chalk it up to incompetence.

Seaguide is an interesting company.  With no address on their website, I was suspicious. It is a Chinese manufacturer, but it looks like their focus is selling components to multiple rod companies. At least in the USA, availability to custom/hobby rod builders is relatively new. There are several rod building suppliers carrying their components now, and Seaguide is a sponsor on rodbuilding.org

These teardrop rings are not inserts, they are coated stainless steel via PVD (Physical Vapor Deposition), which use various processes to vaporize metals, ceramics, etc. in a  vacuum and somehow causing them to bond on a part.  The bond on this coating can be quite strong, and the coating quite thin.  PVD is used to apply coatings on cutting tools, such as the TiN coatings  we see on drill bits.  This gives you an idea on how strong the bond can be.

A PVD applied ceramic coating on a guide is an intriguing concept if they can make it smooth enough.  It could be possible  to make a more durable guide than one fitted with a full ceramic ring.  And also useful for guides where rings are too heavy or not feasible (such as snake guides on a fly rod).

While some of us obsess over guide ring smoothness, once you reach a certain point, the extra smoothness buys you very little in terms of performance, so the coating probably doesn't even have to be as smooth as a ceramic ring, just smooth enough.

While the teardrop rings don't excite me,  I think that the PVD ceramic coating is something worth watching.

-J

[cbar45]

They only offer them in sizes 10 through 25, which would suggest an old-school cone of flight layout rather than NGC, KR, etc. It follows that whatever benefit to be had should be produced over the entire length of the guide train.

Perhaps the elongated shape helps cuts down on loose coils from developing further and forming into wind knots? As Tommy said, a side-by-side comparison with identically built rods—-using different guides—-would give real-world results.

Their claims of the new PVD coating intrigue me; some coatings are good, some not so much. Pac Bay's Titanium-Chrome Minima-4 had one of the best. Definitely something to keep an eye on for further developments.

[quang tran]

PVD guides coating from Sea guides are good for light weigh but not durable than Fuji oxide guides , can't compare to SIC guides .Oval design only stick out a little farther out ,may help to reduce size guides . I would stick with Fuji even Chinese made Fuji

[jurelometer]

They only offer them in sizes 10 through 25, which would suggest an old-school cone of flight layout rather than NGC, KR, etc. It follows that whatever benefit to be had should be produced over the entire length of the guide train.

Perhaps the elongated shape helps cuts down on loose coils from developing further and forming into wind knots? As Tommy said, a side-by-side comparison with identically built rods—-using different guides—-would give real-world results.

IIRC, wind knots are formed when a coil pulls and underlying coil off the spool. A knot can form  as  the coils get reduced from the pull of the payload, usually before the first guide.

As I noted before, with modern guide layouts, the goal is to "choke" the coils out with the first guide or two. This results in the line passing through the remaining guides in a more or less wave form.  The only possible functional benefit that I can think of would be IF this teardrop shape somehow contributed to more complete transformation to wave form with less energy loss to impact.  But I am skeptical.

Or it could be something more minimal, like the far end of a circular ring not coming  into contact with the line much during a cast so they save a little bit of weight, but the teardrop shape. Meh...

 But sliding friction is a function of the combined  material pair  smoothness and the force pressing the surfaces together,  so it seems odd to claim a frictional benefit, as the ring shape does not affect these variables.

Their claims of the new PVD coating intrigue me; some coatings are good, some not so much. Pac Bay's Titanium-Chrome Minima-4 had one of the best. Definitely something to keep an eye on for further developments.

Ha!  I am glad you posted this.  As someone who doesn't care at all about guide cosmetics, I was blissfully unaware of how much PVD applied ceramics were already in use.  For example, PVD coating a zirconia ring in order to turn it gold (claims of meaningful performance improvement from the coating zirconia are disingenuous at best). All that shiny blue, gold and holographic colors that we see on these frames and rings are PVD (or maybe CVD - a similar technology) coating. TiN and TIC are technically ceramics, BTW.

If I read the documentation correctly, the chrome colored rings on those PAC Bays are standard chrome  (chromium) plated stainless steel, and the frames are PVD coated for coloring purposes, and maybe some extra corrosion protection without having to resort to 316 stainless.

Which is kind of funny.  We all went to ceramic rings because they were an improvement in hardness, smoothness, and corrosion resistance over stainless and chrome plated stainless guides.  And now Pac Bay is selling us a chrome ring that looks like a ceramic ring as some sort of "improvement" on ceramics!

Those new Pac Bays might be really good guides, and the way that they do the chrome could be higher quality than back in the day, so I am not making a judgement on the product itself.  I just have to laugh a little at the marketing , and am highly skeptical about the majority of functional benefits that are claimed with these "innovations" (PVD coating of metals and ceramics has been around for decades - guide companies don't invent this kind of stuff).

However, a PVD coated stainless or titanium ring that is  functionally equivalent to a ceramic insert with greater durability at a same or lower price point - sign me up if that happens.

It looks to me like Fuji has not jumped into the PVD game, which I think is interesting.

-J

[cbar45]

I just sent SeaGuide an email asking for more information.

Let's see how they respond, if at all.

[Gfish]

With mono, line age and stiffness might decrease casting distance. Stiff coils might increase friction at guide contact areas. Also, there can be rod contact(rod slap?)before the line passes through the first guide.
The modern long-narrow spool designs might help. But I can't figure-out how the slow level-wind oscillation systems help. Wouldn't a more coarse angled cross wind pattern be better that a tight coil upon coil type of wind?