frustrated - everybody please read this

[Dominick]

Yep.  keep friends and family close and enemies even closer.
"Who is mighty? One who makes an enemy into a friend."  (Jewish Proverb) 

Dominick

[suitekids]

I couldn't agree more, my first mate has been on my butt for years wondering why the heck I would buy something new and tear it all apart, lube it, tweek it, adjust it, polish it and make it always work better than new, I tried to explain that years ago, but it didn't work, so now I just tell her, "I want to see what makes it tick", and for some unknown reason she shakes her head and leaves me alone to tinker. Works for me

[alantani]

guys, it's clear that this didn't come out the way i had intended.  let me try again.  

there is absolutely nothing wrong with pointing out problems with fishing reels.  that is what we have been doing her for the last 3 years.  i am not asking anyone to stop doing that.  if we did, we would not have much else to talk about.  the problem i see is a blanket statement.  i could say "all penns are junk."   after working a senator for 3 hours that was just not coming together, i might actually believe it.  but we've all seen these problems.  and we all have our pet peeves.  i don't like working on spinners.  not a big fan of diawa leverdrag reels either.  seen plenty of problems with avets, and don't even get me started with all that black goo in the shimano trinidads.  

i guess what i'm asking is to keep the comments constructive if you can.  try to stay as objective as you can.  try your best to stay factual and let others come to their own conclusions.  and as always, document your findings with photos whenever possible.  this is more along the lines of what i am talking about.  there was absolutely nothing positive about this post.  http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=317.0

here's the link to the original post.....  http://www.bloodydecks.com/forums/shimano/66620-maylasian-shimano-tld-20-single-speeds.html#post1290562

i received a box of reels from a local party boat captain several weeks ago. he tells me he bought 30 of these all at once. i don't know how old they are, but he says that are all acting up.



now, remember, these reels live on the backs several of party boats in northern california. one had a main gear shaft that had seized up so badly that you could not turn the handle. i was lucky this time. i left it in the ultrasonic cleaner overnight and the next morning was able to pound it out. the last time i tried this, i broke the side plate. and all the rest of the handles had no evidence of grease at all! what really concerned me was the right main side plate bearing. four out of five of these $15 shimano bearings were rusted tight. again, not a drop of grease to be found.





so check the bottoms of your reels, gentlemen!





sorry about the bad news......

Fakes? or Japan is using Malaysia like USA uses China? Either way=crap!

i only know about these 5 reels. i am concerned about this captain's remaining 25. if everyone chimes in and says "bullshit," then we do not have a large scale problem. this post went up on 29 websites. i will know more later......

I see these problems on a huge majority of the TLDs and Charter Specials I see in my shop. Almost all of the Shimano pre-ARB pinion bearings need to be replaced; only occasionally do the spool bearings go bad. This is not a problem of just the Malaysia made reels. These problems crop up if the reels are not serviced annually and water gets inside. My guess is you'll find water stains on the drag washers too...

actually, bill, you can see the drag washers in the photo above. no water stains at all!

That's surprising, or at least different than the vast majority of the TLD20s and 25s I see in my shop. Up here people use tem for halibut with straight 80# spectra. The plastic frame means that the reel torques under the stress of a tight drag and a 100# fish. All sorts of problems crop up from the heavy stress: Very often the gears are shotand almost often the pinion bearing is bad. I'm not sure why the drag washer typically has water stains. It could be that charter captains keep their reels outside in rocket launchers all season long, but whatever the cause, it's very commom. When I replace the drag washer I use some Cal's Drag grease to smooth things out even on the canvas Shimano drags, but the new Carbontex drags are so much better (although also very expensive) that I no longer stock Shimano drag washers.

I bought a used but like new, made in Malaysia, TLD 25, and thanks to Alan's post about no grease on the main bearings, I opened it up. Sure enough, no grease except for a small dab in one spot on the outside. Clearly whoever assembled the reel was going through the motions on greasing. I probably would too considering how much they were being paid.

I was lucky, the reel had hardly been used if at all, and the bearings had no rust.



I then ordered and installed the TLD 2 speed carbon drag washer and modified the washer stack per Alan's hot rodding instructions. A lot more drag capability for sure now.

I do not think that there is any other reason to worry about the Malaysian models if you take them apart and lube, as the parts are still the same.



Thanks once again Alan for the heads up.

[alantani]

so, what i meant for this post and what i wrote clearly did not match up.   what i want is for guys here to take the high road.  name-calling is the last thing that i would want to see here.  on the other hand, if you see a problem you can fire away.  the malaysian tld post was probably the most damning post i've ever written about shimano.  everyone one of us has seen this before.  which is probably why we are all here.  remember, without documentation (mostly photos), the conversation could degenerate into one opinion versus another.  that's what i was trying to say.  it just didn't come out right. 

i sure hope it makes more sense this time.  i know it didn't last time.  i don't think i've ever received so many pm's about one topic before.   

[JGB]

Alan- never noticed this post before.  We do indeed walk a fine line of being "politically correct" with the manufactures and still informing all of us on what we might find when we are servicing or repairing reels. The good news is that almost all the 'newer ' reels I have seen have incorporated much of what we have been promoting to maximize the performance and service life of salt water reels. Shimano and Diawa all seem to now have some sort of lube on the screws, lube on the internal surfaces, 'wet' carbon fiber drags and Shimano seems to be getting closer with Open bearings on the spools.
For myself when I find an issue (especially with a newer model) I'll give the manufactures 'service guy' a call and ask him if he's is seeing this problem and if there is a service update or fix for it. If they do I ask for a 'kit' so I can try it out (they usually send it out comped). When I report the potential issue I also include the solution from the manufacture. This works well for both us and the manufacture and helps the 'service guy' get it escalated to the manufacturing level. This is one of the ways I work with Okuma. Working 'with' the manufactures (when they are open to it) and providing valuable technical documentation (photos, micro photos and possible solutions) eventually evolves into a relationship where the manufacture (or persons inside the company) trust us and our input and put it to good use in improving their products. Okuma and the MK- SEA series reels are a great example of what can be achieve by working together.

Everyone keep up the great work in the 'trenches' -
It does make a difference,
Jim N.

[Nessie Hunter]

Well said and I do see your point...

I try (most of the time) to remain Neutral on Reels.   
I see good and bad in all of them. 
But I also know that every Manufacturer has issues "now and then".....
if they didnt, I wouldn't have much to do....

Many of the issues we see are Operator error also... 
Easy to blame it on the Company, not the idiot end user.......

Not many companies are in business to make friends..   
They are profit driven.. 
2 cents can make a big diff if you sell 4 million of the items a year.



.

[Nuvole]

Point taken and noted.

I'm one of the culprit that have seen enough of cast iron gear & foreign made American reel.
Then those made in first world country with third world country's standard... I've tried my very beat to refrain myself from using the big F, but somehow use the big P at your forum. Do excuse me for now ...>_<...

I somehow just don't understand why those reel factory from the first world country, having issue spending another few buck to pack bearings ...>_<... excuse me again again, there I goes again.

[broadway]

Now I'm with ya, Alan! That site you posted from brings out the worst in people, and I don't understand why
I never feel like someone's gonna call me a moron on this site for not knowing something (even if I should know it)... that's a big reason this home to me 
Thanks
Dom

[alantani]

guys, thanks for cutting me some slack on this.  here's a little story for you, and the sad part is that it is true.  a reel is made overseas and is sold here in this country for $65.  the importing company buys them complete, ready to go, in the box.  you know what they pay for the reel?  only $7.  that's right, a popular reel that used to be made here in this country is now made overseas for $7.  well, it was either that or stop making it all together. 

now, the people that are making it overseas are probably making, what, maybe $1 per hour?  or maybe it's piece work at 25 cents per reel.  i'm not sure how much we can ask of them.  ok, so they missed a spot.  at $1 per hour, what do they care?  even if someone was paid minimum wage here, how much concern would be generated at $10 per hour. 

the answer, not much.   

[qcguy4198]

Good Morning Alan....
Point well taken. The knowledge, experience,and "product expectation" of most of the folks on this forum FAR exceeds that anticipated and planned for by the manufacturers. Reason (IMHO) is simple....to keep a product reasonably affordable, they can't engineer and build it to make the most demanding fisherfolk happy. They are delivering products that meet most people's expectations just fine. I come here to learn what can be done to repair and improve what they produce when my expectations exceed their plans. You can't buy a mass-produced Chevy, expecting Lambhorghini performance...then go online and #### when you don't get it.
That said....this remains one of the most positive, helpful places on the web. Thank You. 
   

[GulfOfBothnia]

I just wonder how much planned obsolescence there is in fishing reels.

The idea is that you can sell a new reel every few years because manufacturer has "invented" new model and older one has no support???
Am i too pessimistic here?

[alantani]

I just wonder how much planned obsolescence there is in fishing reels.

The idea is that you can sell a new reel every few years because manufacturer has "invented" new model and older one has no support???
Am i too pessimistic here?

no, you are right on the mark.  remember that reel companies are in the business to sell reels. they build them and sell them.  then they build more and sell more.  as long as they are selling, the will keep making money and keep building.  unless someone shows them that there can be a profit in doing something differently, they will not change.  that is where okuma came in.  they HAD to do something differently and now their reels are selling.  but the cost of R&D, marketing and having to live up to a 5 year warranty might suck up all the profit.  the okuma story is not done yet.  they could still fail.   

[redsetta]

...they HAD to do something differently and now their reels are selling. but the cost of R&D, marketing and having to live up to a 5 year warranty might suck up all the profit. the okuma story is not done yet. they could still fail.

True, but I wish them every success - at least they had the courage to do it.
"There are two mistakes one can make along the road to truth... not going all the way, and not starting."
Cheers, Justin

[alantani]

it has already had a ripple effect.  avet is offering a "semi" 5 year warranty. 

[Makule]

Not sure I understand this part about "planned obsolescense" because from what I've seen, Penn has been making the Senators, for example, for many years and that series has been a cornerstone for their production line.  Yes, the reels (at least some of them) may be made overseas now, but they've managed to provide parts and support for that series longer than many companies have existed.  The exact same thing can be said of the ABU Ambassadeur reels, Everol, and I guess some others I'm not familiar with.

I'm also not sure if it's an appropriate comparison to be to talking about Penn, ABU/etal, in the same context of as Shimano, Okuma, etc.  After all, the former are primarily fishing reel companies while the latter are quite diversified.  With diversification, it's critical that each division keep up their profit margins or face being spun off, absorbed into another unit, etc.  With a one-trick pony, the stakes are relatively higher, thus the increased need to do things right, and to keep them that way.

Yes, we are concerned about obsolescence.  I'm not really convinced very much is planned, however.  My feeling is that as time passes, newer products (that address certain needs previously unmet, or fill certain trends), newer technology/materials (E.G., graphite and Dyneema), evolve to result in different, "better", products.  Whether they are actually better depends on ones point of view or experience, I suppose.  The challenge has always been to provide a product that meets the needs of the customer, at a price that the customer is willing to pay.  Balancing these two factors will always require compromises (even NASA has limits), and the new products we see are the results of those selected compromises, given the available materials and technologies.  Perhaps we have come to a point where we expect more for what we pay for, than what we are willing to be paid for doing.