cal sheets super 12

[Gaujo]

How is he getting 22lbs of drag at strike?  Anyone ever documented the guts?

www.cals2speed.com/super12s.html

[alantani]

just changing the bellevilles around usually does the trick.  you go from "()()" to "(())" and will usually get a big jump.  if that is not enough, get thicker bellevilles. 

[reelgood]

They machine the spool to take a 1/2" larger diameter custom made drag, drag plate, cover, and carrier, and can get 26-28 at strike if you want them to

I don't know the before after disc size #'s exactly, but a 20% increase in the radius or diameter of a circle will increase the surface area by 44% so this could be fairly significant

[redsetta]

Good info rg, thanks.
Intuitively, an increase in drag area would equate to an increase in drag potential, but I understand that may not be the case in terms of the physics.
It's not something I'm familiar with, but I know this was considered in the early Policanskys.
This from Policansky senior's son David:

Many decades ago, while we all lived in London and while my father was still designing the reel, I told him that the friction between two surfaces depends only on the pressure and the material, but not on the area in contact.  
He didn't believe me, although he'd paid for me to learn physics - it's not intuitive - so I got two sizes of my mother's place mats with felt bottoms and put some books on them and dragged them across the living room carpet with a spring balance.
Even I was slightly surprised to see that indeed my physics books were absolutely right!  
The size of the mat made no difference to the reading on the balance. But a bigger area allows for better cooling.
David

Link here: http://www.sealine.co.za/view_topic.php?id=52810&forum_id=1
I'd be interested to hear any views on this.
Cheers, Justin

[Gaujo]

just changing the bellevilles around usually does the trick.  you go from "()()" to "(())" and will usually get a big jump.  if that is not enough, get thicker bellevilles. 

Do u remove the small silver shim when you change the belleville orientation?

[Gaujo]

David [/quote]
Link here: http://www.sealine.co.za/view_topic.php?id=52810&forum_id=1
I'd be interested to hear any views on this.
Cheers, Justin
[/quote]

Good stuff, but I question the logic.  If you were to cut the number of felt pads on one matt, increasing friction, I think that mat would slide worse.  In this case, if you were to significantly increase the drag creating surface (drag plate ) I think it would require more force to turn the spool 1 revolution than it did before, as it has to overcome an increased amount of friction.  The side plate / spindle is putting the same amount of pressure on the two mating surfaces as before, but it'll be harder to turn.  Now, if the pressure on the drag plate were for some reason less after our change, then yea, net drag would be lower or the same, but in this case the plate is under the same amount of pressure, there's just more friction at the mating surfaces.  

12H has it recessed in the spool face and a good 1/4 of an inch of dead space around the ring, add that to the dead place at the center of the  drag plate and the drag surface of this reel is far inferior to my international 20.  I feel sure that the inside of a super 12 has an improved drag assembly.  I wish I could see a picture!  I know on Cal Sheet's 2 speed 50s he has an additional spacer plate on the handle side, I just wish i could see the guts of a super 12!

I'd imagine it's a plate that has a custom CF washer the full diameter of the spool, and a flat surface on the spool for it to mate with.  The equivilant to the design is how the asbestos donuts worked, but imagine it's smaller in diameter, closer to the center of the spool, and made of carbon fiber.

I'll take a pic and post it soon to show u what I meen.  It's pretty different.

[Bryan Young]

Do u remove the small silver shim when you change the belleville orientation?

You may have to add a shim or two to make up the same height from ()() to (()) because (()) will be smaller in height.

[Robert Janssen]

David

Link here: http://www.sealine.co.za/view_topic.php?id=52810&forum_id=1
I'd be interested to hear any views on this.
Cheers, Justin
[/quote]

From the link/ Mr Policansky:

"...that the friction between two surfaces depends only on the pressure and the material, but not on the area in contact.  He didn't believe me although he'd paid for me to learn physics--it's not intuitive--so I got two sizes of my mother's placemats with felt bottoms and put some books on them and dragged them across the livingroom carpet with a spring balance.  Even I was slightly surprised to see that indeed my physics books were absolutely right!  The size of the mat made no difference to the reading on the balance."

Good stuff, but I question the logic.  

Don't.* It is as he says. That's just the way it works. Physics. The two criterion which greatest affect the sum total of drag are 1) the number of sliding surfaces, and 2) distance from center of rotation to center or mean diameter of friction surface. That is to say, two big-diameter drag washers are far better than one small one.

The relationship between pressure and drag surface area becomes more easily understood when one considers that pressure (psi) is quantified or descibed in pounds per square inch. So for a given load (as in a fishing reel with the mechanism set to max) a larger washer surface area actually lowers the prressure in terms of psi.

There may be other advantages or aspects of using a full face, spool-diameter drag washer, but that isn't part of what we're discussing here.

...and a good 1/4 of an inch of dead space around the ring..

That is of greater importance. See bit about distance from center. Think leverage.

...add that to the dead place at the center of the  drag plate...

That is of lesser importance

and the drag surface of this reel is far inferior to my international 20.

Again, and admittedly somewhat strangely, it isn't that simple.

I feel sure that the inside of a super 12 has an improved drag assembly.  

Yes, quite likely so.

... on Cal Sheet's 2 speed 50s he has an additional spacer plate on the handle side...

Yes, to provide room for the gears. One cannot construct a two-speed gear train in one plane.

-------------

*Or on second thought, DO question it. That is how we learn things.

.

[REK]

"But a bigger area allows for better cooling".

Have hooked some nice YFTs at Alijos, regular size 12 drags, 40# test. Things got a bit warm.
If you want to use this reel for 60 or 80#, things would get down right hot. I think the Super 12 not only has a larger fiber drag surface but the metal part of the drag is also beefed up. If I remember correctly, back in a day when spectra first came out and guys were trying to catch cows with a 12, things got so hot, the spectra was failing due to heat off the spool. So a larger area, both fiber and metal...helps. With the newer reels out now, no way I would use this reel for cow fishing. Sub cows, sure, but not cows.

Notice a beefed up metal/fiber drag. Also, I believe(not sure) you can get a second AR dog installed, which I haven't done yet.
I think this reel is "blueprinted" for up to 80#.

[Gaujo]

Thanks for the replies and the picture, some things to think about for sure.  is that a picture of a super 12?

[George4741]

Have hooked some nice YFTs at Alijos, regular size 12 drags, 40# test. Things got a bit warm.
If you want to use this reel for 60 or 80#, things would get down right hot. I think the Super 12 not only has a larger fiber drag surface but the metal part of the drag is also beefed up. If I remember correctly, back in a day when spectra first came out and guys were trying to catch cows with a 12, things got so hot, the spectra was failing due to heat off the spool. So a larger area, both fiber and metal...helps. With the newer reels out now, no way I would use this reel for cow fishing. Sub cows, sure, but not cows.

REK,
I'm reading this with interest, and a Super 12 is out.  But, let's say I'm an old school PENN guy and I'm going on the trip of a lifetime to catch cows (not sub-cows) at Alijos.  Would you recommend ANY (stock or custom) Penn lever drag?  Or, am I limiting myself too much?
George

BTW anyone else may also chime in here with their recommendation.

[Gaujo]

Well, not counting the 6 which is very rare, this is the baby of the line.  Many of the biggest fish ever caught were caught on penn Internationals.  Understand this is the 12 it goes from there to 20, 30, 50, 70, 80, 130.  Those things are massive with incredible drag, HUGE spools, and double dogs on all above the 12. 

[George4741]

Thank you Gaujo.  I hope you didn't mind that I somewhat hijacked your post, but I've been following it with keen interest.  Since checking out Cal's website I've been wondering what all the hoopla was about with the Super 12.  Is it suitable for big cow tuna?  If not, then there is no advantage in me buying one.
George