Tsi or not Tsi, That's the Question ?

[Jeri]

Hi Capefish,

Getting reels to spin faster than 'standard' is not the issue, we can get just about anything to spin at really good speeds, the issue is getting that speed under control. Having got the reel spinning and under control, the next issue is to get the whole thing tuned to the characteristics of the particular rod you are using.

This was part of the reason that we looked at the Avet reels for surf casting, they spin so fast that even the most accomplished anglers struggle to get themselves tuned to the speed of the reel, and in most cases have to moderate their casting style to get the best from the reels without overwinding on every cast – initially when we started selling them, there were quite a few making it to the second hand market, as a lot of guys found them too fast to master. Straight from the box, they are probably twice as fast as any tuned surf reel in our local market place.

My point about the 'old' Shimano Trinidad 'gold' was that it is ideal as a 'wading reel', with just 1/8th of the original braking facility in place, it suits the faster and more aggressive , but shorter swing casting style when wading; as well as being easy to service after day chest deep in water. Have never found any issue with the drag system, though I don't use 'wet' grease, by dry graphite powder, which I find keeps the drag really smooth and progressive, not needing any further enhancement. With the 'A' series they have gone a long way to sort out the 'float' issues on the long shaft of the spool spindle with the additional bearing, but they still have the same problem that all star drag reels have for a casting situation – which is that the pinion gear floats and causes drag on the spinning shaft. A problem that doesn't become an issue with lever drag reels.

Haven't bothered with 'Reel X', as we have our own blend of oils that we use for oiling bearings, comes from the instrument industry, and does an exceptional job. The point with all surf wading reels is that they must be fully washed out after every trip, otherwise no matter how good the lubricants and protection, salt remains as well as all the sand, and it just find somewhere to start corroding. Bushings are a retrograde step in my mind, as they are 'high friction' areas, and in distance surf casting we are continually looking for less friction.

Our problems usually arise from the fact that the blanks that we are developing require the much higher spool speeds to accommodate the blank 'launch speed', that we most often find that the reels are slowing down the sinker and baits – in flight. Given that off the sand we are now looking at a series of blanks that are exceeding 200 metres, what works for 130 metre casts is woefully too slow for our current needs. The same blanks when wading are beyond 150 metres, so the wading issue isn't quite so acute.

As I mentioned earlier, the top speed isn't the real issue (forgive the pun), but acceleration is what we have found to be the biggest factor in getting the casts away. This we find is best achieved with very fast spinning spool speeds, and then moderating the maximum speed of the spool, with either very small brake blocks or magnetic brakes. On some of the magnetic brake models, we are even 'shaving' the magnets to reduce the effect down to the levels that we are looking for. Which all comes back to my original point, in that we are all 'tuning' our reels for very different types of performance.

My personal opinion is that within the next few years we will see an increasing number of lever drag reels specifically designed for casting – I know there are a few about at the moment, but they are mainly modified big game reels, and lack some of the real finesse that is required for the surf fishing situation.  It is perhaps why I do favour my Avets, despite the fact that they 'don't like wading' – they designed a casting reel from the drawing board up, rather than take an existing model and adapt the design. The lever drag reels also overcome all the drag issues that we face with our surf fishing, so the need for aftermarket tuning is avoided, just fine tune according to your needs, as in surf casting we can't use the huge drag loads that others might be looking for from their reels, as we just can't pull those kind of loads through the very long lever of a surf rod.

It is all 'horses for courses'.


Cheers from sunny Africa, got to go, plan on being chest deep in the southern Atlantic for at least most of the morning, a local competition today .

Jeri

[Killerbug]

"but they still have the same problem that all star drag reels have for a casting situation – which is that the pinion gear floats and causes drag on the spinning shaft. A problem that doesn't become an issue with lever drag reels."

Not all, the Ambassadeur Ultracast system, and the Revo Toro Seriers have no floating pinion prob.  The Revo Toro, and the Rocket Series are real casting machines.  But I guess these reels are too light for your type of fishing. 

Bushings are diffidently a contact area, but not much more than a bearing the same size. The contact area of a bearing, connects on a larger radius, than the bushing(that only touches the the axis).  But with deep grove bearings I am not sure.  BUT,  I would dare to challenge any Shimano Calcutta Guy who has filled his reel with Bocas, using my old red Amb 5500 with brass bushings(and floating pinion by the way).   

[inhotpursuit]

Hi Morten.
A lot of the newer Shimano bait casting reels have super free pinion bearings and the Toro and Rockets have engaged level winds how can there be any advantage?
There is a lot to be said for the old cintered bronze bushings but will they really work as well against a well tuned reel with first class bearings? depends on the weight of the lure i guess, the average weight of the lures i chuck are 1/2-3/4 oz so i will certainly take you up on your offer with those weights, you got me on the big musky sized lures though

[inhotpursuit]

By the way i tried TSI on an old siezed fan with cintered bushings it ran 24/7 for months before i pulled the plug, i would certainly recommend it for they bushings on your reels

[Killerbug]

Hi Morten.
A lot of the newer Shimano bait casting reels have super free pinion bearings and the Toro and Rockets have engaged level winds how can there be any advantage?
There is a lot to be said for the old cintered bronze bushings but will they really work as well against a well tuned reel with first class bearings? depends on the weight of the lure i guess, the average weight of the lures i chuck are 1/2-3/4 oz so i will certainly take you up on your offer with those weights, you got me on the big musky sized lures though

Several casting world records was obtained using a Daiwa millionaire with bronze bushings. Sure today many distance casters uses ceramics, but change them after each competition. So  with todays technology you are probably right, bearings might cast further for some time.

A reel casts better without the levevind for sure, and engaging levelvind vs disengaging, is dependent of the reel size i guess.  But the most important for the performance of a reel, is the spool and how it is made.  It's all about centering the material of the spool, as this makes it rotate easier.  

As a teen I used to inshore fish, using 3/4-1 oz iron jigs for sea run browns, and I think this was the casting weights the old Amb was designed for.  100 meter was a fine distance back then, today using a magnetic brake and some fine bearings you could probably do better.  I have personally been experimenting a lot with different kinds of bearings, Steel, SS steel, ceramics, and semi ceramics, but I don't think the gains of an ABEC + something bearing, or a ceramic, makes any difference to my casting.  But I am not an expert in reel tuning with ceramics etc either, so you might convince me of the opposite.  

So on the bottom line,  I would dare taking up the challenge, but might not win  

[Killerbug]

By the way i tried TSI on an old siezed fan with cintered bushings it ran 24/7 for months before i pulled the plug, i would certainly recommend it for they bushings on your reels

I have no doubts that it would work well. Cintered bronze bushings are partly self lubricating.  They are made by metal particles, that is pressed into a shape together with oil.  When the contact surface of a cintered bushing, heats up,( like by a rotating axis), microscopic oil particles are getting released for lubrication.  When the bushing cools down again, it absorbs the oil particles agian, and will therefore in the theory, not need any lubrication.   

[Jeri]

Hi Killerbug & 'inhotpursuit',

Good day to you both.

Apologies for the generalisation about star drag reels, it was basically to serve a point about the fundamental design concept of the two types of reels. The advances in design that have taken place even in the one model under discussion – Trinidads. In the 'A' series, they have addressed a lot of the shortfalls that became apparent through 10 years of service with the 'gold' series. One of those was to look at the friction elements in the long shaft of the spool, where it passes through the pinion gear – they now have two additional bearings on that shaft alone. Where as in a lever drag reel, the spool shaft is static and doesn't have the rotational issues.

In a casting situation, either minimising the friction points on the shaft or centring them all – are the two design options. For as mentioned, it all comes down to getting the spool and shaft spinning in a situation of maximum balance – or minimum 'wobble'. The avenue to get this sorted with star drag reels is obviously to place as many bearings or bushings along the line of the long section of shaft.

A point about bushing, the 'moving contact area' (friction zone) in a bush is the full circumference of the shaft, while in a ball bearing race, it is the points of contact between the balls and the inner and outer races – likely to be very much less than a bush. The problem in bushes for high speed work might well be a matter of holding lubrication present, and the lubricant will then probably have to deal with a greater heat issue than in a ball bearing of comparable size and running time. Just a thought!

You mention the earlier Millionaires, some with bushings and others with bearings – they were for their time fantastic reels, and probably all built in factories in Japan, where higher tolerances would have been the norm, rather than the problem that Diawa have recognised recently, in that they have recently moved production of their 'high performance' casting reels back to Japan, away from facilities in other far east countries. Ultimately, we are looking at our fishing reels at this level of application as very fine pieces of equipment – and the tolerances used in building them need to be that much tighter than say a general non 'high performance' product.

Looking at the very diverse applications that we are all using various 'standard' products for, it would seem a nightmare for the first designer of a product range. To build a range of casting reels to operate from 1/4oz lures right up through to 24oz bait and sinker applications. To then build these reels in a commercially competitive manner, and satisfy the huge range of other applications that are all inside the design parameters.

In our very small market here in southern Africa, where in global market terms we do a very unique type of fishing with our surf casting – it is extremely unlikely that any manufacturer is going to design and build us a reel that is totally ideal for us – it wouldn't be financially viable. So, we have to take what is basically a global market product designed for 'boat fishing' and adapt it to suit our needs. Even here our needs locally vary, and folks will use reels from sizes ranging from a 14 size right up to 50 size – this is using the more frequently recognised 'game' sizing of reels. The 50, being a reel adequate for IGFA 50 style of big game fishing, while at the opposite end, we will even have folks using reels from the 'heavy end' of bait casting like Calcutta 700's. To them adapt or modify these reels to perform as deliberate surf casting is our local challenge, and then we have the factor that there are a lot of brand loyal followers down here, which makes it extremely difficult for new comers to our market to get a share of the local pie.

When you also add to the reels design, maintenance and tuning equation the fact that like yesterday, I was in a local competition, and for part of the 8 hours I was standing on a sand bank 400 metres from the shore just above waist deep in the sea, with my reel full submerged in that lovely 'reel friendly' environment of salty water mixed with a huge volume of sand, and still expected my reel to perform to near maximum, whether casting or fighting heavy fish – it puts our local situation firmly in the category of unique.

This local situation is therefore quite different, and when you consider that on a global scale, more reels are probably sold in Texas in one month, than down here in 12 months!!! Then, when you look at the diversification of uses say between what you two are doing with casting lures, the production values in terms of 12 months of sales globally, it becomes a realistic return for factories to develop reels for all the specialist markets, whether casting 1/4oz lures or 3-4oz lures, and everything in between. I would hate to have the chore to actually count all the 2012 models of bait casters that are being offered globally at this time. I would hate to run a tackle shop that covers that style of fishing, for you could never get your stock right. It is probably why companies like ABU have refined their range down to predominantly bait casting styles of reels, it possibly gives them a chance to focus on the improvements they can bring to the game.

The smaller ABU and other bait casting reels are potentially ideal for the folks looking to go down the tournament casting route – low spool inertia, thinner lines to utilise the smaller capacity spools, much lower friction potentials, which can be enhanced with even lower friction bearings. However, using 30-40lb+ lines, and looking for 600 metre capacity, they would not fit into most of the requirements of our local surf fishing.

Add to all this that generally because we are on this forum, we are all looking at very small increases in performance from our reels in a very diverse range of applications, because we are all at that point where we are looking at the very core of our equipment and its performance. There can be no single answer for any question, and because of this it is all so interesting, seeing how other folks around the world are coping with similar, but different issues.

Cheers from sunny Africa, now going to clean all the sand and salt out of my reels.


Jeri

[Killerbug]

"Ultimately, we are looking at our fishing reels at this level of application as very fine pieces of equipment – and the tolerances used in building them need to be that much tighter than say a general non 'high performance' product.
"

Very true, but only a specialist will notice this.  In Europe and the US all is about maximize profit and market share, done mostly by outsourcing part of the production to the far east.  This has undoubtedly been harming the quality of their products, and more money has to be used today on aggressive marketing gags, like popping more cheap materials into the reels, and calling them sophisticated names. Exceptions are Avet, Everol, etc, and the now bleeding section of ABU garcia, still producing in Sweden. I have no doubts, that closing down the last manufacturing plant in Sweden, would downgrade ABU to an extent, that it will be the death of that company.

It is my Impression, that the Japanese manufacturers , most notably Shimano and Megabass are putting more pride and quality into their products regardless of profits, and has somehow adapted the now lost "quality spirit" of the Europeans, who used to regard quality as a major condition for earning profit. But agian, I think Shimano's fishing division might only consume 5% of the company's resources , compared to the cycling division  
 
But maybe I am way too philosophical now,  but I just think it's a shame and waste of resourced to make a lot of cheap crap, when we have the experience, and the technology make much better products, than we are.  

[CapeFish]

Very informative posts, thanks a lot guys. KB, sorry we are badly hijacking your thread here. Just a quick question Jeri, you said you use dry graphite powder on your drag washers, is this on the standard "dartanium" washers? I have definitely noticed that with wading you must be careful not to put too much cals grease on carbontex washers as they stick. If you loosen the drag, you have to hold the spool and turn the handle a few times before the drag goes back to its normal setting. I don't think I will take an Avet and swim with it, I couldn't be bothered spending so many hours on preventative maintenance, I don't even get enough time to go fishing and that's probably also why the "reef raiders" here fish old reels with bushes, they don't put in long casts on the reefs, it is better to wade closer as too much line between you and the fish just causes more hookups. Does the Avet spin faster than a penn torque or fathom?

Again that's what makes this site so interesting is learning stuff from all over the world.

[Jeri]

Hi Killerbug & Capefish,

Good day to you both.

Yes, apologies to Killerbug, for hijacking your TSi thread. And full agreement with your sentiment that unfortunately we are seeing so much 'general market' produce being brought to the shops, and from that we have to try and find the quality products that we are really looking for, not the 'quality' that the folks writing sales literature would have us believe. Very much the same in the rods market place – getting sold on new carbons, 'HMG' and the like, when in fact they are just the old 35T but re-labelled!!!

Capefish, on your point about reels and wading, here in Namibia, the point of wading is to get beyond the shallow waters, and be able to launch into deeper waters where the sharks and edible species are in residence, so we don't see the folks using reels with bushes, but what we do see a lot of in our shop is the fact that folks can't be bothered to wash out their reels after wading, and all the attendant internal damage they are then paying to have repaired. – Perhaps they should go back to reels with bushes??

On the standard Shimano drag washers I have been using dry graphite powder as a lubricant for many years, pretty much since they first came out, and never had any problem with the type that you mention. I have personally never been down the 'greased drag plates' route, as most of the reels that I have used are originally dry lubricated – Avets, Shimanos, etc. Despite being an engineer, I always felt that the original manufacturer would know the exact composition of his drag washers and how best to lubricate them, so I would follow suit. This coupled with the fact that every fishing trip is important to me, so I have a passion for servicing my tackle, so that there is little or no excuse for it to fail, which again comes back to very early in my engineering training, when I was taught the lesson of '6 P's'!   - 'Piss Poor preparation, Perpetuates Poor Performance' (apologies in advance to the administrators/moderators for such language).

It basically comes down to how much you want from your fishing, and perhaps how deep your passion flows. A skipper in Miami once told me the value of a sharpened hook with a simple question – "Do you want to lose the fish of a lifetime, all for the sake of a couple of strokes with a hook file?"

As to Avets, I personally think they are potentially the fastest casting reel straight out of the box, for our surf casting situations here in southern Africa, spin the spool, and you will probably get in still running after about 1 ½  minutes – but it will be so quiet that you will have to put it on a wooden table to hear it spin – try that with a Trinidad, Saltiga, Saltist, Torque, Fathom or Torium – it's never going to happen! For the opposition reel manufacturers it is quite a task to get to that point, so this is where they require that you then start to strip bearings and re-lubricate with super thin oils and polish shafts and possibly fit ceramic bearings and the like to get to that kind of performance level.

That said, the Avet is a beast to cast and keep control of the spool to prevent overwinds, especially if you try to get too clever with thinner lines, then you are almost guaranteed trouble. As a sales advisory, we suggest to potential buyers, that we guarantee that they will spend at least 2 days and several hundreds of metres of line jut getting used to it, but once you have either tamed it, or yourself, then the rewards for distance casts will come.

This all again comes down to the rod and the casting technique of the angler, where most surf blanks are quite tame in their launch speed (tip recovery), we have been working with a design principle that very much increases the launch speed, and to this end we need reels that are able to keep a pace with that design concept – but then we are looking at serious distance casting rods, not something that your average pleasure angler is looking for too often. It all comes down to balanced equipment.


Cheers from sunny Henties Bay – surf angler's paradise,


Jeri

[Robert Janssen]

Um, hi... i was just passing by, when this caught my eye. Mind if i interject a few things? It happens to be my favorite example of the advantages of domestic production and long-term profitability. Besides, I just like Abu. 

is about maximize profit and market share, done mostly by outsourcing part of the production to the far east.... Yes, this is a typical modern model of immediate profitability in production This has undoubtedly been harming the quality of their products... Probably, yes the now bleeding section of ABU garcia, still producing in Sweden. May I differ? The Swedish side of Abu-Garcia (really, all of it is Swedish- despite American ownership, the company itself is wholly Swedish afaik)  is doing extremely well, and definitely not bleeding. I meet their CEO / Production Manager and Sales Manager occasionally; both of them are very happy. The Ambassadeur reels, of which several hundred thousand are made anually, are an excellent example. Sweden is an extremely expensive place to produce anything, and in spite of this, temptation and experimentation with full scale low-cost far-east manufacturing has been proven more costly to production and profitability than advantageous. Instead, they found that long term corporate health was greatly improved by implementation of 100% in-house manufacturing at a highly modernized, extremely efficient facility. That way, they get exactly the product they want, at the level of quality they want, at the time they want it. The Swedish manufacturing facility can be considered so streamlined and efficient as to be competitive (or non-competitive: who wants to compete with something they don't aspire to be?) or advantageous as compared to lo-cost far east manufacturing. Some models of the Ambassadeur line, at either the lowest price bracket or the larger sizes are still manufactured abroad though, for reasons of either cost or size/manageability.I have no doubts, that closing down the last manufacturing plant in Sweden, well, its the ONLY plant as well as corporate headquarters would downgrade ABU to an extent, that it will be the death of that company. Yes, they realized this as well. And that is why Made In Sweden is worth it.

... the now lost "quality spirit" of the Europeans, who used to regard quality as a major condition for earning profit.... Well, that's just it- some still do.

But maybe I am way too philosophical now,  but I just think it's a shame and waste of resourced to make a lot of cheap crap, when we have the experience, and the technology make much better products, than we are.   Yes, it a tragic loss in many areas of life, where the desire to do the best one can has become clouded or lost.

We now return you to the regularly scheduled thread (which i haven't been watching anyway)...

.

[Killerbug]

" I meet their CEO / Production Manager and Sales Manager occasionally; both of them are very happy"

I have no reasons to doubt that they looked happy, maybe as a part of their corporate communication strategy  .  But I admit, using the word bleeding was a bit over the top.

So, now we can return the tread   

[Robert Janssen]

But I admit, using the word bleeding was a bit over the top...

Hmm, yeah, maybe that's what caught my eye.  

Its true though, that compared to thirty-five years ago when global domination (they're fond of saying that at the time, seven of ten sportfishing items sold in the world came from ABU) or around seventeen-eighteen years ago, when they really were bleeding, it just ain't the same world anymore.

AAaaaanyway, now about that TSI...

.

[Bunnlevel Sharker]

Well all this sharkin talk drew me in. Why dont yall just get a yak? Simplify everything And as for cleaning your reels, dunking in water and cranking the handle works wonders. cleaned my ol penn 9 right up, im gonna be doin it wore often now

[CapeFish]

The sea is often to rough for canoes, often too far to walk with them and they are not allowed in league angling. Besides we like casting  and your angling is far more versatile without a canoe. You can't cast with a Penn 9/0, old school Penn reels here are about as rare as model T Fords in our neck of the woods. We don't have access to all the upgrades you guys have for these reels and it seems to cost more than the actual reel and its debatable if it is then a better reel than an out of the box or slightly tweaked "modern" reel. The slow speeds of the old school smaller Penns are a problem in rocky areas as you can't bring the sinker in quick enough.