Tsi or not Tsi, That's the Question ?

[Killerbug]

Something Rotten again in the State of Denmark 

I have been reading all that I could find on TSI lately(as I had some rust issues in customers reels), and it strikes me that it is often mentioned that this lubricant enters the pores of the metal, ect. So yesterday I called an ex colleague working in the metallurgical lab of MAN, and asked what all this is about. 

The first thing he told me was that metal has no pores, but unpolished metal has some ridges, and cracks.

On a connecting rod bearing(for an engine) it is in these ridges that the lubricants will stick and, but not for a long time, so oil has to be circulated, and pumped into the bushing.  The bushing are made so that they have ridges for the lubricants.

In our fishing reels, we use SS steel bearings, with polished surfaces. This means(if the bearing is high grade) that our lubes has less "pores" to stick to.  Also miniature bearings has to be provided with lube.  It is me and my fellow fisherman's experiences, that a modern bearing lubed with something like Bicycle chain or Rocketfuel will keep a small oilbath in the cage, that provides lubrication for more that 500 hours of fishing and 10.000 of casts.  Most Bearings are provided with grease from the manufacturer, for the reason that oils will not stick to it for a long time. 

I might seems arrogant, or stupid to rule something out before trying it, but I have tried other high end Lubes, like teflon, and molybdenum and even Krytox!, with no success.  In the metallurgical lab of MAN, they guaranteed me that NO dry lube can preserve the life of a SS bearing.  And as a guy who believe in science and ammunition, I had no reasons to doubt the experiences of MAN.

If something is too god to be true, is normally is, and handling customers reels out, that will be used for 50.000 cast before I see them again, with a lube I have not tested for hours , is uncomfortable. 

But I have read all about your experiences with Tsi,  so I have no doubts that free spool and rust protection is great, and this makes this is a great bearing lube for jiggers, or people casting smaller lures.  I also have no doubts that it provides great rust protection, especially to an Iron nail in a glass of still water 

But while this satisfied 80% of the readers/members, others might have more specific needs, and this tread is targeted at these guys. Others, please don't be offended, or take it personal that I am questioning the theses developed around this wonderful site, I see this is a purely technical discussion.

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I mostly service reels with a high amount of plastics, that's one reason why I ruled out TSI the first time, when I read about it, also I had my doubts that tsi can guard life of the bearings used for hours in reels for Heavy Musky baits(weight up to one pound(the Mysky Innovation pounder ), or of when casting HW Iron in saltwater. 

It is also my impression, that many bass guys are very focused on "workbench freespool", but this has nothing to do with real casting performance.  When using heavier baits, or lures like Spinnerbaits, Doubble 10's, and Bulldawgs, you will discover that these are notorious for getting caught in the wind.In this case we would not need a spool running wild. This is another reason why I would not recommend thin oils, or even dry lubes like tsi for casting.

Actually some great research was done by British competition casters, and lead to the conclusion, that you could control the speed of the spool by changing the viscosity of your bearing lube. 

/Morten

[Irish Jigger]

Food for thought there Morten. Thank's for a great technical post.

[Keta]

I might seems arrogant, or stupid.....

To me you sound like an engineer.  If we don't question things we will get stuck in a rut and we will not progress.

I'm not sure about any of the alloys we call stainless steel but steel has a granular structure with some carbon and void between the iron crystals.  If you have the time ask your friend if TSI like lubes will flow into and stay in these.

BTW, TSI also comes in a plastic friendly version.

[Killerbug]

I might seems arrogant, or stupid.....

To me you sound like an engineer.  If we don't question things we will get stuck in a rut and we will not progress.

Sort of, have a what in the US, or commonwealth are comparable to a  B.tech degree in Polytechnics.  But my ex throw the original away, so I today only have a PDF version of it

[smnaguwa]

Is this helpful info - http://www.engineersedge.com/lubrication/elastohydrodynamic_lubrication.htm?

[Bryan Young]

Hi Morton,

Thinking is what we do, and it's always good to question.  It's even better to test your hypothesis to either qualify or disqualify findings.  For many of us, we do not understand such technical details, but becomes proof through experiences.  So, the only thing we have been sharing about TSI is based on our experiences of free spool after weeks of applying TSI to the bearings.  Jim has been instrumental in going one step further, and that was to test his hypothesis on it's ability to resist corrosion.

Therefore, to actually see the surface of polish steel, coated and uncoated, you will need a good microscope and possibly different array of filters/light to see the differences between the steel and coating.

BTW, TSI is not a dry lube.  It's a thin, wet lubricant...

[alantani]

not sure how it works or why, but i've used a bunch of different lubes over the last 15 years.  of all the different ones, tsi 301 has worked the best.   the spin rate is second only to that dry teflon stuff i tried using a while back.  where it really shines is in longevity.  my makairas are still spinning, even 3 years later.  so i am not sure how to reconcile the theory behind these products with field observations.  my field observations tell me this stuff works.  i'm just not sure why......   

[Killerbug]

Why things works is for most people second to that they works, but we are nerds  .  I am sure Tsi is great for obtaining some desired capabilities of fishing reels, but I doubt all, that was the thought behind my posting. 

Longevity is normally measured hours applicated,  but for fishing reels, numbers of casts might be the right measure to use for some.  The average musky or pike fisherman casts more in a day, than a jigger does in a lifetime,  and wears down his baitcasters(due to ripping the heavy baits), with a pace that makes him always use the latest models  .

It is mainly with these guys in mind I do my stuff, today reminding them that they should not rule the use of high viscosity oils out.  But of course oils like Rocket Fuel and others have their limitations, especially in rust protection, that is almost none existent with these products.

[johndtuttle]

First off, I haven't tried TSI yet, still got plenty of Corrosion-X around for my needs.

But, keep in mind that the casting needs that Alan and most West Coast USA fisherman have is very specialized. We use conventional reels for casting live baits, typically Sardines which probably weigh much less than an ounce (28gms). For this, you only need the fastest lube you can find.

Conversely, we have dedicated reels for casting heavier Iron, and this is generally only done down wind. Here, pure speed is probably less critical and many have magnetically slowed reels for this purpose. Here, pure protection and durability is the chief concern.

So, your Muskie guys that are casting all over lakes and not able to position themselves with the wind at their back at all times have unique needs. Heavy lures need heavier and longer lasting lube. Just what the ideal one is I have no insight although that Corrosion-X grease looks sexy.

best

[Killerbug]

Thanks John 

[Killerbug]

Just found another rust protection oil test done by Take, in this case Shimano reel oil is up against WD40. I think the way Take is doing this test, is as close to the real thing as it gets.  The only thing it does not take into consideration is the lifespan of the bearings, in a non corrosive inviroment.

[Jeri]

Hi All,

I think that this thread goes a long way to highlight the point that we all require a slightly different performance priorities from our reels. Then from that different performance, we will favour different oils and greases to do the job to which we desire.

In reading the original theme about TSI lubricants, metal porosity and a lot that stems from the website 'sales' information, as well as the fact that this does not suit one branch of our sport – but lubricants like 'Rocket Fuel' are favoured – probably because of the adhesion qualities of that product. We equally have the boat guys that are casting ultra light weight live baits and lure, favouring another variety or combination of lubricants – like Alan with his strong faith in Yamaha marine grease. We arrive at the point where none are wrong, but we just all have different priorities in the end use of our reels.

I am just now cleaning up all my tackle after fishing in a 3 day surf International against teams from South Africa – I represented the Namibian 'Masters' team (over 50's), and of the two reels that saw most of the action for me, both have different usages in our surf fishing. I was using an Avet MXL for all my casting from the beach or rock platforms, lubricated with some of the thinnest oils that I can find for the spool bearings – I certainly wouldn't consider using 'Rocket Fuel' in this reel – too slow, but as soon as I needed to go wading in the sea out to stand chest deep on a sand bar, I switched to an older model Shimano Trinidad, which I had specifically prepared for full and prolonged immersion in sandy and salty water.

The Trinidad offers me the option of fine tuning to open out the drainage ports and packing the open (unshielded) bearings with a variety of greases and oils – dependant on their location. Spool bearings did indeed receive 'Rocket Fuel' for its 'sticky' characteristics, while the non-high speed bearings were all packed with silicone grease to prevent corrosion. The point that they were less accessible for maintenance each evening, meant that I was looking for something to protect them from sand and salt corruption, while the more accessible bearings for the spool could easily be cleaned and re-lubricated each evening after use.

The MXL, while an awesomely fast spinning reel for surf casting served me very well, but they don't respond too well to prolonged immersion in the sandy and salty environment of the southern Atlantic. The very fine engineering in the mechanics does not respond well to trying to chew through salt and sand in bearings and gears.

The point that I am perhaps slowly coming to, is that for a very wide variety of fishing situations we will all favour different reels, and at this point none would appear to be better than others, as the priority of our performance requirements are vastly different, and from that point onwards, how we lubricate each reel for that myriad of applications is going to vary.

A couple of points from the above, the Trinidad 'gold' that I favour over say the newer model 'A series', is because for quick and easy stripping and cleaning, the older model is infinitely better than the newer model – I have even stripped and re-lubricated bearings while sitting in the sand – something I wouldn't contemplate with the newer models. However, the old 'gold' model does have one serious weakness that really can spoil your whole day of surf fishing, is that the bearing at the very bottom of the handle shaft is very exposed to water, sand and salt, as well as being very slim in build – quite a weak bearing for such a location. I address that bearing with a huge application of silicone grease – a product used for lubricating rubber seal waste plumbing pipes during assembly – certainly not a propriety product for fishing reels. However, it does the job exceptionally well, as being totally waterproof, and seriously difficult to displace, it protects that quite exposed bearing very well. However, I certainly wouldn't be recommending it for general usage as a bearing or gear lubricant, but for that specific bearing, it does the job very well.

In closing the point must be with all our fishing and reels that we look at the issues and problems surrounding their usage before we fix the problem. Apologies for the engineer in me coming out, but I was always taught that we have to first fully identify the problem before we find the cure.

Cheers from sunny Africa,


Jeri

[Killerbug]

Thanks for your post, interesting read.  Do you cast the Trinidad A series, if so, how do you find it regarding it has no centrifugal brake?

[Jeri]

Hi Killerbug,

The Trinidad A is a great reel, probably one of the better 'engineered' reels around, but perhaps slightly 'over engineered' - too much work to do basic servicing, and very small detail issues in assembly. Casting it is great, and probably  one of the obvious reels that needs to be moderated with various oils or a very well trained thumb.

A common approach down here in southern Africa is to use the end float mechanism to moderate reels, and I feel that this is a retrograde step in our surf casting, as we need initial acceleration to be maximised in our casting, rather than restricted.

I much prefer the choice and adjuctability of either centrifugal brakes or magnetics to moderate spool speeds. Magnetic are perhaps the way forward, but for a pure cost aspect centrifugal is great, especially if you take the time to set up your reels for yourself. I even at times get down to cutting the brake blocks in half to really fine tune reels. Getting reels to go fast is not the issue, getting them under control is more the point.

Apart from that a nice reel.

Cheers


Jeri

[CapeFish]

Hi Killerbug and Jeri,

All the top anglers I know here remove all breaks out of their reels and some even have them tweeked to spin faster. The Shimano 20/40 must be one of the most popular reels here in SA now replaced by the Torium and neither have any form of break. Many of the top anglers here can put a bait out 130m and more with those reels. I presume it is the same in Namibia. With smaller size reels though I find breaks help e.g. in a Saltist 30, the smaller spool just spins so much faster. On my Penn Fathom 40 I have also engaged 3 of the breaks as that reel spins incredibly fast as the spool spins on the shaft like in the case of an Abu or lever drag reel.

I agree with you on the Trinidad A series, it is a significant improvement on the old gold series, particularly the drag, anti-reverse and the drive shaft bearing but man it is a pain to lube the spool bearins, you have to take out something like 11 screws. I understand you want as rigid frame as possible but could they have not gone the route of the Saltiga rather, making the removable internal plate part of the frame and a separate left side plate?

Jeri, have you tried reel X in your bearings? The corrosion prevention is exceptional and it stays in the bearing. I have often done swims and then just rinse the reel with water and only much later relubed the bearings.

Some anglers here that fish a stretch of reefs here in Cape Town where you basically stand up to your chest in the water a few 100m out often mod a 20/40 or SL50SH as a dedicated reef reel by replacing the spool bearings with vesconite bushes and they like to hammer the drag as tight as possible with a sinker as well as it is sort of hit and hold fishing to try and stop the shark reefing you.