Lever drag reels drags, line, casting

[dobrobill]

    While testing I have had thoughts and questions about conventional reels.  I don't want to cause argument here and if one has found my observations off base here please reply respectfully.  Before I get to the point I have been using conventional star drag reels since my early twenties and I'm now mid sixty. I started my little project as a way to get to know the lever drag reels as I had never used them prior to buying my first one in the past year.  Through my wants and desires I now have seven; three from Ca. Mx/Lx bx2600;  one from Pa. 12lt; one from NJ.15(China maybe) ; two from Taiwan vs12 1 and 2.   
There is a lot of writing on this forum about setting drags and a general consensus has been established that drags should be set about 30 percent of line pound test.  Line and reels 30% figure holds true enough with mono but not always with braid. Lever drag reels have the capability of drag settings that can cause braid line to dig into itself on the reel.  A variance in that larger diameter braid can thread on/off without dig-in at a little higher drag setting. In my testing I have found that 80/15 pound braid will dig in at about 23-25 pounds drag. This was not just a little, but a very deep dig. I did not use the rod as tool except to bolt the reel on. This is a straight pull off and reeling on the reel at 25 pounds drag.  I did this on a reel that can adjust to 25 pounds or better drag. I further found that this same braid can dig in very easy during a cast that has just a little over spin on larger spools causing 80lb test to break in the blink of an eye. This smaller diameter braid seems to work better on smaller spools. Using ones finger to spread the braid very fast when reeling helps the dig but I will forget during battle and end up with a mess. Drag changes the more line is off the spool further complicating my braid/reel dilemma. Of course there is always the rod that changes drag as well. The whole point of all this is I wanted what all small reel users want a way to stop a train thus not having to deal with weight, heavy line and bulk of bigger gear or having to fight long battles when more fish are needed in the boat so to speak.  Yes, the levers have lots of drag but it is not much good if the line will not flow correctly. Having a reel that can go possibly to 50 pounds drag with the 80/17 example is a waste. The thread size fishing line is still a great idea but my question is when will reel drags allow its potential?  To me it is still like the late 80's when we put 40 pound braid on so that we could get at least 17 pound diameter on our bass reels to work. I assume that charter boats are getting the lines and reels to work on the high seas. What am I missing? One might say due to the lever and braid one can step down in size reel and up size braid say 50 lb. but the diameters keep getting smaller and dig must follow?
Next I ask about casting these incredible lever reels casting. Can anyone on this forum say they can cast a 250 to 300 30lb test mono capacity lever drag reel as far as they can a like sized/raced up(bearings and drags only) star drag reel?  I have tried and given everything equal except the reels I cannot.  The best I can do with one of the lever drags is about 20% less than three different models of my star drag reels (9000, 980, 140).  The new lever drags come out of the box with excellent free spin but even that has to be slowed down to cast or overruns will occur. 
Last questions can levers survive the surf sand? Has anyone used one for the surf over a long period of time?

[Squirmypug]

To keep the line from digging in, it needs to be spooled very tight. When spooled tight the braid feels like a rock around the spool and shouldn't have a problem when casting/fighting a fish.

[day0ne]

When Squirmypug says tight, he means tight.  Some people recommend a minimum of 10 lbs of drag pressure to spool braid while others recommend at least the amount of drag that will be used on the reel to spool the line (or more), i.e., 26-27 lbs of pressure for 80 lb line, 17 lbs of pressure for 50lb line etc. It's best done on a machine powerful enough to handle the drag or spooling on one reel, setting the drag on that reel and transfering it to another reel (hope that made sense). Another advantage of spooling so tight is you get more line on the reel. Some used to recommend elaborate criss crossing of the line but that hasn't proved very successful and isn't recommended.

The hardest part of casting a lever drag reel is controlling the spool, hence the magnets in the mag cast Avets and the cast control in the Accurates. Mostly it's just practice. Think back to how long it took to learn to cast your star drags

IMO, the  style of reel (star drag or lever drag) isn't as critical for surf fishing as the manufacturing tolerances of the reel There are star drag reels that don't do too well in the surf because of tight tolerances, like the Shimano Calcutta's (or so I hear). That said, I would tend to believe most lever drag reel have tight tolerances and sand would be a problem. They weren't intended to be surf casting reels. They were intended for times when precise drag control and repeatable drag settings were needed.

[dobrobill]

Thank you guys for the line tightness tip, will proceed back to re-lining with 80 lb test "very very tight"
I have a very early Cacutta 700 that I never had any problem with in the surf but I do keep my reels clean.
Will work harder casting.  Told last night capacity is not always the largest casting factor. Spool style, bearings factor in. As well as Wide/Tall/Narrow etc.  All things equal both type reels should and will cast the same.
I will keep the levers away from the sand and away from my kayak due to water penetration. Too expensive to waste them away.
After reading another article on this forum and having a phone discussion having a lot of drag will wear me out and I think I will keep it under 20 pounds for even my heaviest fishing.

[CapeFish]

You should ask Jeri for some advice. He has been using Avet reels from the shore. Locally people have been trying the Shimano Talica for heavy shore casting as a replacement for the discontinued Trini 40s and 50s and it seems like they can handle severe abuse so don't be too afraid about reels with tight tolerances, if the materials are good quality then they will be fine. The tight tolerances actually helps to keep sand out. Perhaps you also should consider the rod you are using?

[Keta]

Hollow tends to lay flatter and not dig in as bad.  10 lbs is the minimum I put spectra on with.

[dobrobill]

Thank you and noted....  Hum..... Hollow is really expensive...

[Jeri]

Hi dobrobill,

A little background to my observations about lever drag reels and surf fishing, I started a tackle and rod building shop in Namibia nearly 8 years ago, and looking at the local surf fishing and the need for fast accelerating reels, there was a need to look at options.

Option one was to replace bearings with ceramics or even higher tolerance stainless steel bearings – ABEC 5 or even 7. The problem with this is that a lot of local anglers will not strip out a brand new reel and replace standard bearings with new and expensive imports, they will only do that when the reels have finally ground the standard bearings to a rusty mess – and by that time the shafts are also worn, so putting in fine tolerance bearings would be a total waste of time and money.

Option two, was to find a reel that spins like the devil and would scare most anglers on the beach. We found this in the Avet MXL & LX series of reels, and duly imported some. The scare the pants off them was indeed the end result, but we did have a few customers that persevered with them, and with fine tuning to their casting style they ended up getting serious improvements to their casting distance. One drawback that we soon found was that the very fine engineering inside the Avets was not ideal for our 'wading' situation, as this fills the reels with a fine mixture of salty water and sand – really chewed up the bearings, and we even had some issues for clients that didn't wash out their reels, with gears getting damaged as well.

However, as all this casting was with monofilaments (nylon), we never really had problems that couldn't be sorted with a little customer education and more frequent servicing. They are not as robust in their service periods as the likes of Diawas and Penns, which can basically be abused to the very end, before they stop working – but the down side is that they certainly don't cast as far. The Avets do need attention to keep them working to their maximum potential.

Avet then introduced their magnetic control system, which for our purposes – with nylon, where just too effective, and we had to look into this further. The system is very ingenious, as it uses polarity rather than proximity to effect greater braking effect, so a minor modification to the proximity factor, and we had a solution for the overly effective braking system.

Personally, I have been using Avet reels for surf casting for over 2 years now, and I find that the slightly narrower spool of the MXL does cause less problems than the slightly wider spool of the LX, however, when reel capacity is an issue, I will pick up a LX with a 'tuned' magnetic brake. As to what we achieve with a drag loading – well in a surf situation, we have very few people that can actually fight a fish with more than 10kgs of drag pressure, as they haven't the physical strength to pull the rod round that far, so the reel never has to come up to that level of drag requirement. In a surf fishing situation, I have several clients that have fought and landed Bronzies (Copper sharks) to over 150kgs with Avet LX reels and had no problems.

So, to your problem of braid on a lever drag reel for surf casting, might I suggest that as an initial starting point, you might try to switch to nylon for a trial period, to find out whether the it is the spool speed of the reel that is giving you a problem or the braid issue, as braid is a lot less forgiving in a casting situation than nylon. Should you need to go down the braid/lever drag situation in surf casting, then a reel with either magnetic or centrifugal brakes might be an avenue to explore.

One last aspect of surf casting with various reels that is not readily apparent is the actual rod, or more specifically the blank. We have certainly found that some deigns of higher performance blanks actually demand a fast accelerating reel spool to achieve their best performance, as blanks with very fast tip speed/recovery do respond best to the likes of the Avet. When we test some of our prototype designs, we take two reels for testing, as time and again, the rods perform adequately with a well tuned surf reel (star drag), but really only come to the fore with a fast spinning spool – that we find on the Avet. Reels that don't spin fast enough for the sinker to take the line smoothly,  start to 'judder' in their delivery – an uneven or disrupted spinning of the spool, which is an aspect that will invariably lead to an over wind mid-flight, and a resultant crack-off.

One last thing – in a surf fishing situation all lines, nylon or braid will only perform well, when wound on really tight – any loose coils will immediately upset the cast. We wind on really tight for all our casting, laying the line between finger and thumb to maximise tightness onto the reel.

Hope all the above helps.


Cheers from sunny Africa,


Jeri

[dobrobill]

Sent PM . Thanks

[Dr. Jekyll - AKA MeL B]

check this thread;

http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=4709.0

[Bunnlevel Sharker]

Like they said abought braid, soak the spool in a bucket of FRESH water(seen some people try and use salt) then run the line through a telephone book(whats that ) with another one stacked on top and below with atleast 40lbs on top. Put plenty of drag on, get in harness if neccesarry, and wearing a GLOVE(so you dont slice your fingers off) put line on reel. This only works for BRAID not mono

[day0ne]

Like they said abought braid, soak the spool in a bucket of FRESH water(seen some people try and use salt) then run the line through a telephone book(whats that ) with another one stacked on top and below with atleast 40lbs on top. Put plenty of drag on, get in harness if neccesarry, and wearing a GLOVE(so you dont slice your fingers off) put line on reel. This only works for BRAID not mono

This also damages braid from the heat generated by the friction. Braid (Spectra) should never be spooled by putting pressure on the line itself, only put pressure on the spool it is on. One method is to put some sort of rod through the spool of braid, lay the spool on a piece of carpet and use your feet to apply pressure by pushing on the spool. Another way is to load the braid on another reel, set the drag and wind it back onto the reel you want it on. You can also put some sort of rod through the spool and have someone wearing gloves put pressure on the spool while you wind it on. Many unexplained breakoffs can be traced back to braid spooled by putting friction on the braid itself.

[Dr. Jekyll - AKA MeL B]

This also damages braid from the heat generated by the friction. Braid (Spectra) should never be spooled by putting pressure on the line itself, only put pressure on the spool it is on. One method is to put some sort of rod through the spool of braid, lay the spool on a piece of carpet and use your feet to apply pressure by pushing on the spool. Another way is to load the braid on another reel, set the drag and wind it back onto the reel you want it on. You can also put some sort of rod through the spool and have someone wearing gloves put pressure on the spool while you wind it on. Many unexplained breakoffs can be traced back to braid spooled by putting friction on the braid itself.

please correct me if i'm wrong. when you put pressure either by using another reel or someone wearing gloves, doesn't that in fact put pressure on the line too when you are spooling your reel....thanks much!

[Keta]

Jerry Brown says 10 pounds is enough to pack a reel or spool,  so far I haven't had any problems.

[day0ne]

This also damages braid from the heat generated by the friction. Braid (Spectra) should never be spooled by putting pressure on the line itself, only put pressure on the spool it is on. One method is to put some sort of rod through the spool of braid, lay the spool on a piece of carpet and use your feet to apply pressure by pushing on the spool. Another way is to load the braid on another reel, set the drag and wind it back onto the reel you want it on. You can also put some sort of rod through the spool and have someone wearing gloves put pressure on the spool while you wind it on. Many unexplained breakoffs can be traced back to braid spooled by putting friction on the braid itself.

please correct me if i'm wrong. when you put pressure either by using another reel or someone wearing gloves, doesn't that in fact put pressure on the line too when you are spooling your reel....thanks much!

No, not if you only use the gloves on the outside of the line spool to provide drag. The key is to not touch the line directly to provide drag. It's OK to use fingers, gloves, etc to direct the line on to the reel, but use another method to provide tension. Heat from friction can damage Spectra