Experimenting with the 113H drags

[Alto Mare]

No artist Bob, just playing around with this stuff.
If you do have the brass gears, I'm going to recommend that you go ahead and give it a shot.
Brass gears are very easy to work with, ss is another story. I won't be doing another until I purchase a Foredom. I  have some nice bits, but could use a better tool. I just sold one of my brand new 12/0's to pick one up , I'm personally very excited about these and will be doing it to a lot of my reels.
The fiber washers from the Baja are the ones that I use, they need to be trimmed to size.
I use a metal washer and hold it centered on the fiber washer, this allows me to trim for size, being careful not to take the tabs off. I would then trim the tabs to size.
This is a good thing. As far as drag capability is concerned, I believe we passed the baja's drags' capabilities and I'm only just using the thick metal washers. If I use the thinner washers, we could add two more fiber washers, but that might be too much .
I wonder if Doc, Lee or anyone else would be interested in cutting the groves for us.
Sal

[Alto Mare]

Dom, I'm still waiting for you to give it a shot on some of this stuff that we've been playing with. Come on buddy get with it

[BMITCH]

Hey sal, I did a search on the foredom. What does this get you?? Is it that you can anchor it better thus more stability?? Let me know what you find out with this. I'm really interested in this. Maybe I could take the gears to a local machine shop and have them cut them using your diagrams. All just food for thought. Love the idea of the  tabs though.

[Alto Mare]

Bob, the best solution is to let a machinist do it for us. About the Foredom, it isn't a great tool for this particular job, since it will still be done freehand, but much better than what I'm using now. I do not clamp the gear I hold it in my hands while I do the grinding. I understand that not all are comfortable using cutting tools that close to their fingers, I've been  shaping tiles and crown moldings for many years and it doesn't bother me. The foot pedal will also help with controlling the speed.
Lets keep in mind that this is just a test, just because the washers and gears held up to my test, it doesn't mean that they would out in the real world.
Alan mentioned that Accurate had issues with these on their two speed boss. I'm not an engineer, I've examined the Baja's gears and my ss gears very closely, I believe these will work.
On the 6/0 there is less material, it is a good idea to go with a sleeve as the one that  Doc designed.
That sleeve might also do it for the 4/0... if it's easier to do. Either way, we've got something here.
Sal

[BMITCH]

I think the only problem with an insert for the 4/0 would be less overall surface area. Anyway when I get a chance I have a machinist friend with only a six pack I might have him take a look. Small investment,big payoff. I'll let you know when I do.
Bob

[alantani]

Hi Alan,

I haven't signed up on the forum yet, so I thought passing this suggestion through you to Sal (atlo mare) might be quicker and easier.  Sal has been experimenting with cutting extra grooves in the main gear to accomodate extra ears on the drag washers (similar to the newer Penn drags). In doing so, he eliminates the eared washers from the drag stack. 

My thought is that it may be easier to keep the eared washers, not modify the gear, and toss the slotted washers.  The carbon washers would then be round on the outside and slotted on the inside.  First thought is that these washers might need to be thicker or have a glass reinforced center for extra strength.  If that didn't do the trick, an extruded brass sleeve could be made to slide over the gear sleeve (inner shape slotted, outer shape hex or whatever is suitable) and the inside of the carbon washers would be cut to fit the shape of the sleeve. (Eared washers might have to be drilled out to clear the hex sleeve in that case).  Just a thought.  Thanks, Steve


PS:  Also thought you might be interested in the $1.69  inflator needle and brass adapter kit I found that might work for grease guns:  https://www.forneyind.com/store/detail/727/blowguns/7037/air_line_blow_gun_accessories_inflator_needle_with_18_male_npt_adapter_carded/ 
(if this link didn't work right it was item #  75356 on www.forneyind.com)  I also found a one piece SS blunt needle luer adapter that would work on most syringes for people who don't need a dedicated grease gun.

[redsetta]

I think the only problem with an insert for the 4/0 would be less overall surface area.

G'day Bob,
I used to make that assumption too but, as we're dealing with 'friction' rather than 'drag' (per se), surface area doesn't directly affect the reel's drag capacity.
It's kinda non-intuitive, but (with all other factors being equal) the drag produced is the product of the materials (ie greased CF and steel) and the force pushing them together.
Making the drag components smaller would actually increase the friction (ie drag pressure) generated by the force applied.
I'm no expert in physics, so others may want to chime in with further clarifications if needed.
Cheers, Justin

[George4741]

Sal, I've checked out the Foredom website.
http://www.foredom.net/  
Is this what you are talking about? Are you thinking of using one of their flexible shaft tools, or something else?

Another thing, if you can control the depth of the slots and not drill into the bottom of the gear, then you won't need an eared CF washer at the bottom of the drag stack.  A standard CF washer could instead be used and the rest of the stack would have a metal, eared CF, metal, eared CF, and so on.  However, I'm not sure if my suggestion offers any real advantage.

[Alto Mare]

Hi Alan,

I haven't signed up on the forum yet, so I thought passing this suggestion through you to Sal (atlo mare) might be quicker and easier.  Sal has been experimenting with cutting extra grooves in the main gear to accomodate extra ears on the drag washers (similar to the newer Penn drags). In doing so, he eliminates the eared washers from the drag stack. 

My thought is that it may be easier to keep the eared washers, not modify the gear, and toss the slotted washers.  The carbon washers would then be round on the outside and slotted on the inside.  First thought is that these washers might need to be thicker or have a glass reinforced center for extra strength.  If that didn't do the trick, an extruded brass sleeve could be made to slide over the gear sleeve (inner shape slotted, outer shape hex or whatever is suitable) and the inside of the carbon washers would be cut to fit the shape of the sleeve. (Eared washers might have to be drilled out to clear the hex sleeve in that case).  Just a thought.  Thanks, Steve


PS:  Also thought you might be interested in the $1.69  inflator needle and brass adapter kit I found that might work for grease guns:  https://www.forneyind.com/store/detail/727/blowguns/7037/air_line_blow_gun_accessories_inflator_needle_with_18_male_npt_adapter_carded/ 
(if this link didn't work right it was item #  75356 on www.forneyind.com)  I also found a one piece SS blunt needle luer adapter that would work on most syringes for people who don't need a dedicated grease gun.

Steve, thank you very much for your suggestion! Nice to see that I'm attracting non-members.
I understand what you're saying, I've also thought about something similar but gave up. I personally don't believe it would work. The reason is as you've mentioned above.The outer dimension of the gear is 1 7/8". The inner dimension is less than 1/2" by the slots. These washers, that I'm showing, generate over 35lb of pressure, I believe that's just too much for the 1/2" keyed fiber washer to handle. I understand that you've mentioned a thicker washer, but the stress would be at a very small area, by the flat sides of the sleeve.
You are more than welcome to give it a shot, that's what this is all about.
As of now, I'm very comfortable with the gears that I've grinded. The fiber washers don't look pretty, but I can get them cut much nicer if I had taken a bit more time.
I'm also thinking of tapering one of my gears to get a sharp edge so that I could punch some fiber washers or use pressure to do so .
Thanks again for chiming in. Come on board, you will like it here.
Sal

[Alto Mare]

Sal, I've checked out the Foredom website.
http://www.foredom.net/ 
Is this what you are talking about? Are you thinking of using one of their flexible shaft tools, or something else?

Yes George that's it.
A friend recommended that's what I should be using for what I do.
I was using tools from Harbor Freight....worthless. I now have a dremel, it's ok, but it overheat badly. Can hardly hold it in my hand at times.

[BMITCH]

Sal, I was thinking that the punch idea is good. Only problem I see is your doing them by hand. The fit could be a problem. No control free handing the.. For me that is.

[Alto Mare]

Bob, I'm not too concerned with the fiber washers, all you need is a little patience with those.
We need to get a machinist to make the groves for us. See what your local guy will say.
Six groves are easy to mark, or maybe use one of the baja's washers.
Sal

[Alto Mare]

Steve, I was thinking about what you mentioned above and decided to give it a little test. Not for anything, just to see if it would actually work.
this is what I did:

Roughed up some metal keyed washers

and sandwiched between two carbon fiber washers, using some good epoxy

took the reel apart again and placed the sandwiched washers in to test.
by the way, when I opened the reel the second time, the washers with the tabs still looked good.

Here is what I found.
By pulling the line out, I got exactly the same as I did with the groved gear 35lb.
What surprised me was that when I was trying to lift aroung 20lb by turning the handle, the reel couldn't do it.
I removed some weight from the bucket, the reel was only able to lift 10lb at max, while slipping a little.
I can only give you my results, but can't explain why to you, I'm not a Physicist.
Maybe Doc can chime in, he probably already did this test
Keep in mind, this is something I rigged up by using what I had, I'm not 100% sure that it is accurate.
I just wanted to put it out there.

Personally, I'm liking the groves and Doc's sleeve a little more.

Sal

[paal]

I think the only problem with an insert for the 4/0 would be less overall surface area. Anyway when I get a chance I have a machinist friend with only a six pack I might have him take a look. Small investment,big payoff. I'll let you know when I do.
Bob

Still a very nice upgrade I think, because you gain much more area than you loose. An octagonal insert could give a tiny bit more area than the hexagon, because the keyed washer can be made a little bit larger. With a lathe I guess you could start with oversized keyed washers and tune them to a perfect fit inside the octagon. Not sure it would be worth the labor, though. I think it would be better to make sure the metal washers are perfectly flat. I have some stamped (is this the correct term?) washers for my Senator that are not very flat, and that will cost some area. I'd really like to do these upgrades, not to get more drag but to have less stress on the bridge, and perhaps even smoother drag

Paal

[Keta]

I wonder if Doc, Lee or anyone else would be interested in cutting the groves for us.
Sal

The mill I have access to is worn out and my machinist skills are poor.