Still Rebuilding this penn 113hsp-Question?

[broadway]

     So, I thought I had it, but I don't...but I'm close.  Here are my questions: I hear a slight, rubbing noise from inside the reel.  My first thought was the spools not seated properly so I opened her back up, and as far as I can tell she's seated.  While It was open I noticed that when I flick the eccentric lever the pinion doesn't go directly up and down it does more of a one side at a time upward/downward motion.  I assume that when the spool is on this won't be able to happen with the shaft going through it, am I way off?  Is the pinion supposed to fit firmly inside the yoke or should it be able to pop out (while installing the eccentric jack not when shes closed up).  I think my hard time is that I'm doing the gear, tib frame, yoke, drag, metal washer upgrades as opposed to one thing at a time. (for a rookie like me, that is)  If I did one thing at a time I would be able to point out the culprit as opposed to all the variables (that you pro's know your way around).  Thanks in advance from one heck of a confused man!

Dom

[Irish Jigger]

Have a look at Alan's Penn Tutorial "113H/114H Senator- Short Version" (pics 14 and 15) which shows how this particular area is assembled.

[broadway]

Jigger,

     I went through Alan's tutorial at least 30 times before I attempted these upgrades.  I looked at photos 14 & 15, but it can't express how tightly/loosely the pinion is held in the yoke.  Do you think it could have something to do with the newell stainless gear and pinion. I hear a slight rub and a coffee grinder type sound like when you crank as fast as you can on the standard (out of the box) penn 113hsp? I saw in another post (not sure what page, def. between page 2 + 7) that the newell gears didn't work so well for them either.  They're problem was the gear and the pinion not being in harmony, also had the coffee grinder sound. 
    I saw another recent post (PAGE 1) mentioning the senator with the black sideplates and an upgrade to a 5 + 1 drag stack.  Is the belleville the +1?  Thanks
                                                         Dom 

[Irish Jigger]

Sorry broadway,I am not familiar with the Newell gears although I have seeen somewhere that they are noiser than the standard gears. I am sure Alan will be along to advise you here.

[slgriffiths]

Broadway,
I suggest you carefully check inside the groove the Newell pinion gear that the yoke fits into.  
On ones that I've used, there is usually a significant amount of metal that has been pushed into it by the gear cutting tool when the gear was cut - they appear to cut the groove, then the gears.  
Use a reasonably strong magnifying glass, and I suspect you'll find that this rough metal in the groove is biting into - and wearing - the stainless yoke you've fitted.  This is what creates the grinding sound you are hearing/feeling, and is the reason that stainless yokes are necessary for stainless gears.  It doesn't need to be.
I feel the gears shouldn't really eat the yoke as they do.  Brass should run on smooth stainless without significant wear for a long time - if the surfaces are machined and finished correctly.  Here they definitely are not.
I use a small very narrow smooth flat file, such as a spark plug file, or a flat needle file, to remove this metal, by fitting the pinion gear into a drill press, and turning it slowly, while using the file to restore a nice flat side edge to the groove.  Go slowly - you don't want to widen the groove at all - just take off the metal that has "washed into" the groove as the gear teeth were cut. Then polish the side of the slot with 2000 grade emery double-side taped to a steel rule, and used as you used the file.  Should be no grinding sound now.  Your pinion won't be eating your yoke.
As for the smoothness - yep, the Newell gears aren't what you'd call smooth - Shimano they ain't!  But saying that, they are strong (most important in my opinion) and faster (if that's important to you).
Keep an eye out for Accurate gearsets on eBay, if you want to.  They are really smooth, as they are much more helically cut, but they'll cost you an arm and a leg, though.  At least twice the Newells.  I think they are worth it, however. But even they will need the groove fettled so it doesn't "eat" the yoke.
Lastly, the yoke will lift the pinion square and true when it's on the spool shaft.  What you are seeing is normal for a partially disassembled reel.
Good luck!
Simon

[slgriffiths]

Sorry, Broadway, another thought...
You've done the hard yards, spent the money, and you're gonna have a really good reel at the end of it.  I certainly love my 113H's that I've worked on and got the way I want them.  
Have you considered one of Alan's stainless gear sleeves?  That would really round it off - you could crank up your new (greased!!!) carbon drag knowing that:
a)   the top of the gear sleeve where the handle mates to isn't going to round off under the pressure of that big one, and
b)   the metal drag washers aren't going to cut into the soft brass gear sleeve under pressure, and effectively lock up the drag stack by digging into the gear sleeve, and not allowing the stack to "let go" when the star is backed off.  Happened to me - and made me a convert to stainless sleeves.
Again, I recommend these sleeves highly.  
Now, if only I can source a couple for my 114H's!!!
Simon.    

[broadway]

Simon,

     Thanks for the solid recommendations.  My upgrade included: carbontex drags, stainless yokes, gear sleeves, newell 4:1 gears and pinion, tiburon frames (t4).  I will definitely check for the metal shavings in the pinion and check the spool to make sure that slight rubbing noise ain't the spool.  I think the coffee grinder sound, if it's not the pinion shavings is just the rough sound of the gears.  I have checked for those accurate gears, and I got a better shot at finding Hoffa!  The only ones I see are older and look a lil' scraggley.  If anyone's got a connection to these puppies don't hesitate to send a pm, (if in good condition).  Thanks for the advice.  I think I got her this time:) 

[Bryan Young]

I saw another recent post (PAGE 1) mentioning the senator with the black sideplates and an upgrade to a 5 + 1 drag stack.  Is the belleville the +1?  Thanks
                                                         Dom 

Hey Dom,

The +1 is the drag washer under the gear.  It's normally a felt or hard plastic washer.  Alan replaces that with a greased carbon drag washer.  I think he uses the same drag washer that he grinds down.  See the first photo of http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=208.0.  It's the washer on the far left.  That one goes under the main gear.  Also see http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=175.0 how he grinds down the washers to make custom washers.

Hope this helps.

Aloha,
Bryan

[CarolinaCustomReels]

Simon,

I just sourced a couple of stainless gear sleeves for the 114H, as I have some coming in this week for upgrades. They are from a company in Florida that I found through one of the posts on here. I believe they ran about $25. I'll find the company and post it.

Evan
CCReels

Edit:

Fisherman's Ideal Supply House
http://www.fishermansidealsupply.com/recreationaltackle/
750 Welch Causeway East
St. Petersburg,  FL  33708
727-391-7380
Call: 1-800-780-7380 

I also tried Electra-Mate, but I couldn't get them to understand what I was looking for. They kept trying to sell me a $649 electric winding motor for the 114    They supposedly do carry them though.

[broadway]

Thanks for the clarification on the 5+1, Brian.
Dom

[alantani]

     So, I thought I had it, but I don't...but I'm close.  Here are my questions: I hear a slight, rubbing noise from inside the reel.  My first thought was the spools not seated properly so I opened her back up, and as far as I can tell she's seated.  While It was open I noticed that when I flick the eccentric lever the pinion doesn't go directly up and down it does more of a one side at a time upward/downward motion.  I assume that when the spool is on this won't be able to happen with the shaft going through it, am I way off?  Is the pinion supposed to fit firmly inside the yoke or should it be able to pop out (while installing the eccentric jack not when shes closed up).  I think my hard time is that I'm doing the gear, tib frame, yoke, drag, metal washer upgrades as opposed to one thing at a time. (for a rookie like me, that is)  If I did one thing at a time I would be able to point out the culprit as opposed to all the variables (that you pro's know your way around).  Thanks in advance from one heck of a confused man!  Dom

dom, put a thin but clearly visable coat of grease on the inside hidden portions of the spool and reassemble everything.  then give the handle a couple of cranks and pull the spool out.  take a look a the grease and see if it's the spool that's rubbing.  if the grease is rubbed away then you will have an idea of where the rub is.  sometimes the spool is shifted too far to the right.  you can fix that problem by putting a small washer underneath the right spool bearing. 

don't worry about the eccentric jack, the yoke or the pinion gear.  they will all line up properly when the spool is in place.  can you let us know how you're doing?  thanks!  alan

[broadway]

Hey Alan,

     I think I got the rub out by playing with the non handle side bearing.  I was recommended from a friend to loosen then tighten the bearing.  It seems to have worked.  All I'm waiting for is my custom handles to be delivered before I post photos.  It should be about 3 weeks before the stripers start to line up for the spawn.  At that point I can give you guys a review on this upgraded bohemoth. Thanks
Dom