Line pressure on a reel spool

[Makule]

Hard to fathom how much pressure is on a reel spool when it's filled with monofilament line.  Take for example, 6 lb test mono and wrap a length (maybe 3') around your hand while holding moderate tension.  After a few turns, that cumulative pressure adds up and it soon becomes too tight to keep going.

Now imaging doing that for several hundred or thousands of times.  Gets pretty darned tight, and by that time your hand is probably smashed in half.  But wait, there's more.

My boy scout friend, during a fishing trip, taught me about something called "frapping".  Let's say you're tying two sticks together to put up a tent.  You wrap, as tightly as you can, many turns around the two sticks.  You can even go criss-cross to hold the sticks at a 90 degree angle to each other, but they still move around.  Now, take the loose end and wrap that around the wrapping, between the two stick.  (see this image) http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://glenn.cockwell.com/images/sqr6.jpg&imgrefurl=http://glenn.cockwell.com/scouting/creating_a_square_lashing.htm&h=300&w=400&sz=28&tbnid=mZzYcUsgFakeZM:&tbnh=101&tbnw=134&zoom=1&usg=__BIApAJSh9n1yFE_-HKB6k8CVlB8=&docid=WKAJ45PB3jcdtM&sa=X&ei=MhNLUp_iAsTgyQH3_oHgDA&ved=0CFcQ9QEwBg

Even a few turns and you'll notice how much tighter the wrappings became.  This wrapping around the wrappings is called, "frapping", and it's purpose is to make the wrappings much tighter.  It's the function of the frappings around the wrapping to pull the sticks together as the wrappings are squeezed.

On a reel spools, there really are no wrapping like around two sticks, but there are frappings between the spool flanges that press down on each other and push the flanges apart.  Especially in the larger reels, like the Senator 14/0, the number of turns goes up into the thousands or tens of thousands.  Consider this and it's not too hard to see how even such strong spools can break.  The example of frappings on the spool is not quite accurate because the forces aren't quite the same.  Still, it helps to demonstrate why spools made out of 75,000 psi metals (I'm just using 75K as an example and it may actually be higher) can distort or crack.

[Robert Janssen]

I remember one of the Penn guys explaining how it added up to be around a ton.

Never tried to quantify it myself; just figured he was probably right.

.

[Bunnlevel Sharker]

I think Jery brown said you can start spooling mono with a pound of pressure any with each wrap it multiples the pressure. Good info Makule!

[Mandelstam]

As an old boy scout I know all about frapping and I understand the concept of what you describe. But with braid in the picture I also understand that this has lessened the strain on the spools compared to stretched mono exerting their accumulated spring force on top of the initial pressure. But how much really? I'm just trying to understand which is the biggest culprit here, the pressure with which you load the line on to the spool or the accumulated spring force from the stretched line trying to return to it's normal state. It's like wrapping something with wet stretched leather. When that leather dries and shrinks the wraps are going to be tighter than you could ever make them by pulling and wrapping dry leather alone.

I guess my question really is - are we safe using braid? Are distorted spools something you should only worry about using mono as both backing and top shot?

/Karl

[Makule]

Recall in the "old days", fishing line was made of linen (trade name = "Cuttyhunk").  Opposite of leather, when wet, the line got tighter and stronger (i.e., 2.5 lb per strand when dry and 3 lb per strand when wet).  It was a natural product and subject to rot, so after every use, it had to be washed and dried (out of the reel).  I digress, just interesting history.

The relationship with modern braid is that it did not stretch like mono.  I do not know whether braid stretches more than linen, but if it does, only by very little.  I know there are some stats on how much braid stretches (maybe like 3%).  Linen line was used with the three-piece spools without problems, and this was during the days of Zane Grey, etal., when the boats were not fast so big billfish could not be chased down as they are today.  In other words, the brakes were on tight. 

The main problems of those days was that linen line was quite thick for the strength (I think the #36 line, 108 lb test, was about the same diameter as modern 400 lb mono) so holding enough line prompted Penn to produce the 16/0.  Even so, the failure points were the brakes and still not enough line for the monsters.  Zane Grey had Kovalowsky custom make his 20/0 reel (massive winch-like piece in black, which I could have purchased for $1,000 back in the early 70s) to address these issues.  I do not recall spool breakage as being a major problem, if at all (probably did happen, though).

The point is that with line that doesn't stretch (much), even the three-piece spools held up.  Certainly, the cast bronze and even the aluminum spools are stronger and can withstand more pressure.  I have a 14/0 with 200 lb braid and have never had any problems with it even after taking massive strikes. I do not take the line out after fishing and rewind, being confident that the spool will hold up (but I thought the same before my other spool broke).

On another note, consider that all of the modern lever brake reels (including the largest from different manufacturers) all use aluminum spools.  These were produced before the advent of braid, and with the low-speed, winch-like, gearing a tremendous amount of pressure can be put on the spools.  We do not hear of spool breakage in these reels as being a major problem.

When Penn sold the Senators, they advised putting a few layers of backing at the very base of the spool before winding on mono.  I used whatever I could find, from dacron to cotton string, just to provide a cushion.  The mono would squeeze the cushion and lessen the lateral forces.

As an old boy scout I know all about frapping and I understand the concept of what you describe. But with braid in the picture I also understand that this has lessened the strain on the spools compared to stretched mono exerting their accumulated spring force on top of the initial pressure. But how much really? I'm just trying to understand which is the biggest culprit here, the pressure with which you load the line on to the spool or the accumulated spring force from the stretched line trying to return to it's normal state. It's like wrapping something with wet stretched leather. When that leather dries and shrinks the wraps are going to be tighter than you could ever make them by pulling and wrapping dry leather alone.

I guess my question really is - are we safe using braid? Are distorted spools something you should only worry about using mono as both backing and top shot?

/Karl

[Ron Jones]

Ok, this is as good a place as any to ask this,
Their are the 3 piece spools that have the arbor pressed into the sides that I have seen fail, and their are the three piece spools that have a sleeve in the middle of the arbor with nuts on the sides, all of the 66 spools I have are built like this and most of the 85s. Does anyone know of weaknesses with the bolted spools?

Thanks
Ron

[alantani]

he lost me at "cumulative pressure....". 

[Shark Hunter]

Guess I need some cushion on my new 14/0.
Correct me of my ignorance here Albert. Who is Zane Grey and Kovalowski?
Also, I have read about a 20/0 and most say it is a myth. I guess not, since you were there!

[VW]

Ok, this is as good a place as any to ask this,
Their are the 3 piece spools that have the arbor pressed into the sides that I have seen fail, and their are the three piece spools that have a sleeve in the middle of the arbor with nuts on the sides, all of the 66 spools I have are built like this and most of the 85s. Does anyone know of weaknesses with the bolted spools?

Thanks
Ron

You are talking about the stainless steel spools Penn produced for a few years.  They are very strong and I have never seen/heard of one failing.  The nuts will keep the spool from spreading apart.  I suppose the flanges could flex/bend, but have never seen, or heard, of it.  I like, and use, them a lot.

[Shark Hunter]

Do you have a picture of the three piece stainless with the nuts? I gotta see this.
I'm learning new stuff by the Day here!

[Bunnlevel Sharker]

Guess I need some cushion on my new 14/0.
Correct me of my ignorance here Albert. Who is Zane Grey and Kovalowski?
Also, I have read about a 20/0 and most say it is a myth. I guess not, since you were there!

Oh my. Google him

[Shark Hunter]

Guess I need some cushion on my new 14/0.
Correct me of my ignorance here Albert. Who is Zane Grey and Kovalowski?
Also, I have read about a 20/0 and most say it is a myth. I guess not, since you were there!

I see I'm about to get a history lesson. I am going to buy a book about Oscar Kovalovsky. Looks like good stuff. He talks about Zane Grey in His Book. Patience with me Albert. I am eager to learn, but I haven't been at this sport my whole life like a lot of you guys.
I have always liked to fish and remember catching yellow bellied catfish with my grandpa all day.
I just wish I would have started saltwater fishing a long time ago. I am hooked!

[Makule]

Zane Grey was an author, world traveler, and renowned big game angler.  He wrote mainly western (cowboy) stories, but also did fishing books (i.e., "Zane Grey On Fishing", "Tales Of The Angler's Eldorado: New Zealand",  "Tales Of Swordfish And Tuna", "an American Angler In Australia").  His fishing trips were to such locales as Australia, Hawaii, Samoa, Eastern USA, Galapagos Islands, and elsewhere.  He was noted as having fished up to 300 days a year and caught some impressive billfish when the rods were all made of hickory (apparently broke a lot of equipment too).  It seems he was among the very early individuals who started big game fishing and may have had something to do with the founding of the International Billfish Tournament (just guessing).  He was one of those guys of legend. 

There is an image of him with a large reel on the cover of "An American Angler In Australia", but that is not the reel I mentioned (at least the color is different so someone may have painted it).  Another page http://www.antiquefishingreels.com/photos/fishing/big/MVC-028L.JPG is from a book and the caption is that Grey is posing with his custom made 20/0.  It seems to be the same reel as is on the book cover (so maybe it is the same reel that I saw, except without the black paint).  That the reel may have been painted black is plausible, given the stories about Zane's, alleged alcoholic, brother.  For some reason, the sum of $5,000 being paid for the reel by Grey sticks in my mind.  During the time, that was literally enough with which to buy a house.

Kowalovsky (Arthur, and his son, Oscar), had a reel making company and they made custom reels only for the rich and famous.  You had to be rich to purchase the reels, and being famous helped you to be rich.  Although I've never had the opportunity to open up any of the reels, my guess is that their designs were ahead of their times.  All of their reels look somewhat like modern big game trolling reels, and some even had two speeds.  Take a look at some of the reels they produced on this page:
http://www.antiquefishingreels.com/galleryReels.html

My recollection is that some frames were made of aluminum and/or bakelite, although certain other parts were of other metals/materials.  Maybe some reels were actually made of SS.  Although some smaller reels were made (e.g., 9/0), perhaps most were from 12/0 to 20/0 sizes.  While my recollection about the details are fuzzy, I seem to recall someone telling me that Grey's reel weighed about 50 lbs.  In any event, all of the reels were made to the highest precision and craftsmanship available at the time.  Let me tell you, I have one old Atlapac reel that was still considered more of a "mass produced" item than a Kowalovsky, and it compares more than favorably to the very best reels made today, in terms of workmanship and attention to detail.  Kowalovsky reels were made to a higher degree of craftmanship as they were not meant for the mass market, and each one was a custom item.

Guess I need some cushion on my new 14/0.
Correct me of my ignorance here Albert. Who is Zane Grey and Kovalowski?
Also, I have read about a 20/0 and most say it is a myth. I guess not, since you were there!

[VW]

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The belled flanges were made in the correct diameter for a series of spools and the width was set by the length of the center arbor section.  The flanges slip over slightly smaller diameter ends on the arbor.  The nuts hold everything together, including the spindle.  If you get a used spool, check to make sure the nuts are tight - I found one that they were loose.  Everything is stainless except the clicker ratchet.  I have seen some with brass/bronze nuts, possibly early production?  They are very corrosion resistant but I have seen a couple with some pitting.

These spools were used on many of Penn's smaller reels, all the Peer levelwinds from 9 through 309 and the 210, Squidders, Jigmasters and similar sized, all the Long Beach, and probably a few more.  The LB 67 spool is a drop in fit for the 113 (black) Senator.  The LB 66 can be used to build a narrow version, and the LB 68 for a wide version.  Those are the largest SS spools I know of.  They were not made for H/Special Senator models.  I wish they had been.   

[Makule]

In the not-too-distant future, I will be purchasing/reading the book, "A Conversation with Oscar Kovalovsky: Last of the Great 20th Century Reel Makers".  Oscar, the son of Arthur, worked with his father to manufacture reels for the rich and famous.  He also got to know those rich and famous.  For gear-heads like me it should be interesting to hear his views on reels and their manufacture, other reel manufacturers of his day, as well as of those he rubbed elbows with.