Yet another Avet bearing question - the spinning of the pinion bearing

Jon_Kol · January 29, 2014, 09:18:25 PM

Hi everyone!

It's been quite a while since I was here last, and sadly life has been too busy to go fishing that much. I also needed a break, not to become fed up and grow tired of it all.

Lately though, I've felt that my interest in fishing has started to head in the direction of my previous passion. Luckily, I should say.

However, one thing that I left unanswered last year was that the problem with the bearing(s) in the Avet LX 6/3 just won't seem to stop. I bought two full kits from Boca, and sadly the pinion AND the drive shaft bearing (the one on the inside of the side plate) failed in my friend's reel, on the second trip since he had the bearings installed.

Now, I don't believe that Boca's bearings are bad, it's more of the fact that this area of the reel takes such a beating from our deep sea fishing with heavy sinkers, lots and lots of reeling etc, that it just won't hold up to the pressure.

So I'm really trying to find bearings that will fit the part, and withstand the amount of pressure longer than the new ones have done.

With that in mind, I've written to Boca and explained the situation. Sadly, since the last time I spoke with them, my contact at the company has moved on to a new job. Another gentleman at Boca now answers my e-mails, and it's his latest reply that I need the expertise of the people in this forum. Here's the e-mail:

"Hello Jon,

How are you lubing the 1601 bearing? This could have an affect on the bearing and may be the cause of early break down. I am wondering if a sealed bearing may be your answer in this application. All our bearings are what is classed as deep grooved bearings. Also, as this bearing goes in the pinion does it need to spin as freely as spool bearings? I look forward to your reply so that we can try and find a solution for you. Regards, xxx"

Now I'd like to hear if I might have made a mistake installing the last bearings.. are bearings, which are supplied dry, meant to be opened and lubed inside? Cos what I did was to lube the entire outside of the bearing, as I was given the impression that the bearing was suppose to run dry inside because of the ceramic balls that they contain. Have I messed up this part?

Also, I'm not qualified to answer the second part of the e-mail: Does the pinion bearing need to spin as freely as spool bearings? I'm not familiar with this.

I really hope someone can help me out, the last time I was here the response was great! Thanks for reading this. Regards, Jon - Norway

Shark Hunter · January 29, 2014, 09:25:32 PM

There seems to be a big problem with these Avets and the bearings. I am mainly a Senator man, and not much help to you Jon, but be patient. There are Gurus of all fishing reels here that will help with your problem?

Shark Hunter · January 29, 2014, 09:31:00 PM

Robert Janssen is fixing to come up with something. This Guy is a Genius! Watch this topic.
http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=9456.0;topicseen

Robert Janssen · January 29, 2014, 10:41:37 PM

are bearings, which are supplied dry, meant to be opened and lubed inside? Yes Cos what I did was to lube the entire outside of the bearing, Well, that is good too, since it hinders corrosion and allows the part to be removed at a future time more easily as I was given the impression that the bearing was suppose to run dry inside because of the ceramic balls that they contain. Ah, a ceramic bearing? Well there is some truth to that, but is the bearing wholly ceramic, or only ceramic hybrid? Have I messed up this part? Naw, i don't think so. The BOCA guy's comment was worthy of thought though- seals do keep a lot of crud out of the bearing. And crud (foreign matter) is a foe of all bearings.

Also, I'm not qualified to answer the second part of the e-mail: Does the pinion bearing need to spin as freely as spool bearings? No, not even close. Pinion bearing only rotates as you turn the handle. Like, 200 RPM. Spool while casting, 10 000-20 000 RPM. BUT, it should definitely turn freely and unhindered, yes

Oh yeah- Pinion bearing IS the one in the sideplate. Also have a look at the spool bearing, left side. They're the ones who do the most. The ones inbetween (spool right hand side and in the drive washer assembly) are of somewhat lesser importance. I mean, of course they're important, but just not as vitally so as the others.

And about the Avet bearing solution project, yes... I'm working on it. Takes a lot of doing. More later. Long story.

.

LTM · January 30, 2014, 12:29:39 AM

Jon,

I think one of the issues here is the use of ceramic bearings in your spool bearings AND "Heavy weights". Also the need to use "grease" to "pack" your pinion bearing and left side plate bearings.

The hybrid ceramic bearings have ceramic bearings and sst cages, this mix give the handle "hybrid" bearings. Instead of sst bearings and sst components. Typicall ceramic/hybrid bearings are use for throwing "light" (bass angler light) lures distance. Since your using heavy weights, this would not seem to be their original purpose/forte. Its also my understanding that ceramic berings require high maintenance to maintain effency/performance, due to ceramic dust/wear accumilations. Ceramics seem to be more fragile than heavy duty.

You may want to go with ABEC5 SST bearings instead.

Leo

SoCalAngler · January 30, 2014, 06:15:18 AM

Jon

Since you keep going through pinion bearings, I have to ask at what drag pressure are you fishing your LX? Sure you might get one bad bearing but a on going problem sounds like something else is happening. I worked for the largest Avet dealer for a couple of years and my father and myself both fish Avet reels. Most if not all the bearing problems I have seen is by people over fishing their reels, meaning usung more drag than the reel was designed for. The two oldest Avets we own are both about 7 years old and neither one has had any bearing replaced or bearing issues.

erikpowell · January 30, 2014, 08:21:32 AM

Quote from: SoCalAngler on January 30, 2014, 06:15:18 AM
Jon

Since you keep going through pinion bearings, I have to ask at what drag pressure are you fishing your LX? Sure you might get one bad bearing but a on going problem sounds like something else is happening. I worked for the largest Avet dealer for a couple of years and my father and myself both fish Avet reels. Most if not all the bearing problems I have seen is by people over fishing their reels, meaning usung more drag than the reel was designed for. The two oldest Avets we own are both about 7 years old and neither one has had any bearing replaced or bearing issues.

x2... my P ex4/0 is 7 yrs old.. 4yr old bearing...set at 28lbs and i haven't had a bearing failure yet..though I'll still be looking at the A/C bearing option when it comes around

Jon_Kol · January 30, 2014, 10:05:46 PM

Hi! Thanks for all the input, I appreciate that. I'll answer some of the questions as follow:

1. Too high drag setting and thereby damaging the bearings? - No, to my knowledge this has not happened. I/we are aware of this, and our fishing does rarely include having to change the drag much at all - as our deep sea fishing is more based on pumping the fish from sometimes as much as 600 meters, but usually the fish are not fighters per say. So the drag is set carefully, and I/we never try to change the drag without putting the reel in "Free".

2. The ceramic ball bearings. - Actually these were recommended to me by the gentleman at Boca, to solve the problem with the standard pinion bearing failing in the LX 6/3 reels (I've got about 5-6 fishing buddies with exactly the same problem regarding this reel). I'm far from any expert in bearings, so I figured I'd listen to his advice. Here's the info from the bearings:"Stainless Ceramic Hybrid, Metal Shields, Grade 10 SI3N4 Ceramic Balls".

Again, thanks for the quick response and good input. I'd really like to find a more permanent solution to the bearing problem, the only reel I've got issues with is the LX 6/3.. my SX MC 5.3 has been outstanding.

SoCalAngler · January 31, 2014, 03:55:00 AM

Jon,

Don't think I'm saying your doing anything wrong but with a ongoing problem there most likely has to be one common denomniator. Like using Occam's razor I try to find the simplest answer first. You say you set the drag "carefully" but at what pound of pressure are you setting it?

EDIT: Also since your SX has the 5.3 gears it is a older model, is your LX an older model also? There was been some upgrades from the older model Avets. Is your LX what they call engraved or does it have the etched writing and picture on it?

jonathan.han · January 31, 2014, 06:19:31 AM

The SX 5.3 is the updated model. I believe the original had a 4.7 or 4.9, but definitely sub 5:1

limitdown · January 31, 2014, 09:58:53 AM

Please check my Angular Contact bearing mod from March of last year (2013)
http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=6771.0
Many people since taken this idea and put it into other brands. The Omoto mod last month uses the same concept as mine.

In a nutshell. The pinion and left spool bearings take lots of axial load (side load) in addition to some radial load (spinning load).
Standard deep groove radial ball bearings are made to handle mainly radial (spinning) load and very little axial (side load).
For most radial bearings, maximum axial load is approximately 1/4 of the radial (spinning load).

The small avets use tiny bearings for the pinion and left spool. This means that the amount of axial load they can take is tiny.
The solution would be for avet to use much larger radial bearings, or to use angular contact bearings.

Regarding ceramic bearings. I had some full silicon nitride bearings that I slapped into my Makaira 50W. I removed them as soon as I received the proper angular contact bearings. the reason is that although silicon nitride is extremely hard, it's also brittle. I was scared that heavy pressures would crush my balls. If you're going with aluminum oxide balls (white-colored), they're a heckuva lot more brittle than SiN3 balls, so definitely skip that idea.

Shark Hunter · January 31, 2014, 11:56:26 AM

No crushing of the balls!

erikpowell · January 31, 2014, 11:45:56 PM

and much less likely to happen with balls of steel

SoCalAngler · February 01, 2014, 06:04:22 AM

Sorry Jon you are correct I mixed up the 5.1 gears (older) with the 5.3 (newer). Off the top of my head and without looking at my SX with my glasses I thought the newer gearing was 5.8.

Jon_Kol · February 02, 2014, 02:42:10 PM

Quote from: SoCalAngler on January 31, 2014, 03:55:00 AM
Jon,

Don't think I'm saying your doing anything wrong but with a ongoing problem there most likely has to be one common denomniator. Like using Occam's razor I try to find the simplest answer first. You say you set the drag "carefully" but at what pound of pressure are you setting it?

EDIT: Also since your SX has the 5.3 gears it is a older model, is your LX an older model also? There was been some upgrades from the older model Avets. Is your LX what they call engraved or does it have the etched writing and picture on it?

I'm not sure what it equals in pounds, but I haven't had the LX higher than 6 (out of 12) on the drag button setting. Surely this must be within the capacity of a high quality ball bearing? The side plate of the LX has etched writing and picture, you feel the details in the sideplate if you move a fingertip across it.