Yet another Avet bearing question - the spinning of the pinion bearing

[johndtuttle]

I agree with the above that a simple stainless bearing is your better choice than ceramic for the axial loads that are the bane of Avet reels, in general. Unfortunately, BOCA customer service did not seem to have an understanding of your needs and their product. If they really wanted to help you they would recommend a bushing rather than any bearing for utterly trouble free cranking for your application.

People love the basic Avets that fish them precisely as they were intended (Southern California techniques) and do not have a "heavy hand" with their tools. The rest of us find:

1. Avet pinon bearings are too small.

2. An SX or even LX is not designed for the type of fishing you describe as I understand them. It is a light live bait, light live bait trolling or casting reel not designed for heavy winching of lead day in, day out regardless of drag setting.

3. They hold up fine for their intended use, but are under engineered like most inexpensive lever drag reels for the average guy who can't understand that pushing the drag lever to full with a generous preset destroys his pinion bearing. "Why does it go to full if full destroys the reel?" is what the average guy thinks.

All reels are not suited to all tasks. Simple bottom fishing with generous amounts of lead are very well suited to star drag reels with mechanical dogs, low gear ratios or a big long handle mated to the gear ratio and your weight/target species. Replace the bearings with bushings, add a stainless gear sleeve and you literally have something that will last a century with routine maintenance.

If you need more instant drag like lever drag reels provide then you might have more success with heavier reels like the Avet Raptor series or Okuma 8II, Penn 12VSX and their large pinion bearings and 2 speed mechanical advantage.

[Keta]

If you need more instant drag like lever drag reels provide then you might have more success with heavier reels like an Okuma 8II or Penn 12VSX and their large pinion bearings and 2 speed mechanical advantage.

What I did was go to the HXJ Raptor for this, I often still use my 349's and 113H "Tank" for Pacific halibut but when I want/need a LD the HXJ is my reel of choice.

[johndtuttle]

If you need more instant drag like lever drag reels provide then you might have more success with heavier reels like an Okuma 8II or Penn 12VSX and their large pinion bearings and 2 speed mechanical advantage.

What I did was go to the HXJ Raptor for this, I often still use my 349's and 113H "Tank" for Pacific halibut but when I want/need a LD the HXJ is my reel of choice.

Absolutely right Keta and I will edit my post to be fair to Avet.  The Raptor series with it's dual drags has a better distribution of axial load and should perform great for this application.

best

[Jon_Kol]

I agree with the above that a simple stainless bearing is your better choice than ceramic for the axial loads that are the bane of Avet reels, in general. Unfortunately, BOCA customer service did not seem to have an understanding of your needs and their product. If they really wanted to help you they would recommend a bushing rather than any bearing for utterly trouble free cranking for your application.

People love the basic Avets that fish them precisely as they were intended (Southern California techniques) and do not have a "heavy hand" with their tools. The rest of us find:

1. Avet pinon bearings are too small.

2. An SX or even LX is not designed for the type of fishing you describe as I understand them. It is a light live bait, light live bait trolling or casting reel not designed for heavy winching of lead day in, day out regardless of drag setting.

3. They hold up fine for their intended use, but are under engineered like most inexpensive lever drag reels for the average guy who can't understand that pushing the drag lever to full with a generous preset destroys his pinion bearing. "Why does it go to full if full destroys the reel?" is what the average guy thinks.

All reels are not suited to all tasks. Simple bottom fishing with generous amounts of lead are very well suited to star drag reels with mechanical dogs, low gear ratios or a big long handle mated to the gear ratio and your weight/target species. Replace the bearings with bushings, add a stainless gear sleeve and you literally have something that will last a century with routine maintenance.

If you need more instant drag like lever drag reels provide then you might have more success with heavier reels like the Avet Raptor series or Okuma 8II, Penn 12VSX and their large pinion bearings and 2 speed mechanical advantage.

So what you're saying is that you don't believe the LX 6/3 can handle heavy sinkers, deep sea fishing and a lot of reeling - without failing a bearing with quite a short periode of time? Or did I misunderstand your reply?

[johndtuttle]

I agree with the above that a simple stainless bearing is your better choice than ceramic for the axial loads that are the bane of Avet reels, in general. Unfortunately, BOCA customer service did not seem to have an understanding of your needs and their product. If they really wanted to help you they would recommend a bushing rather than any bearing for utterly trouble free cranking for your application.

People love the basic Avets that fish them precisely as they were intended (Southern California techniques) and do not have a "heavy hand" with their tools. The rest of us find:

1. Avet pinon bearings are too small.

2. An SX or even LX is not designed for the type of fishing you describe as I understand them. It is a light live bait, light live bait trolling or casting reel not designed for heavy winching of lead day in, day out regardless of drag setting.

3. They hold up fine for their intended use, but are under engineered like most inexpensive lever drag reels for the average guy who can't understand that pushing the drag lever to full with a generous preset destroys his pinion bearing. "Why does it go to full if full destroys the reel?" is what the average guy thinks.

All reels are not suited to all tasks. Simple bottom fishing with generous amounts of lead are very well suited to star drag reels with mechanical dogs, low gear ratios or a big long handle mated to the gear ratio and your weight/target species. Replace the bearings with bushings, add a stainless gear sleeve and you literally have something that will last a century with routine maintenance.

If you need more instant drag like lever drag reels provide then you might have more success with heavier reels like the Avet Raptor series or Okuma 8II, Penn 12VSX and their large pinion bearings and 2 speed mechanical advantage.

So what you're saying is that you don't believe the LX 6/3 can handle heavy sinkers, deep sea fishing and a lot of reeling - without failing a bearing with quite a short periode of time? Or did I misunderstand your reply?

Well, in a short answer, yes. Particularly when using a ceramic bearing that is experiencing axial loads as you have found. You should get better life out of quality stainless bearings of the same size.

This class of Avet and their near (clone) competitors are really the lightest duty of any of the full metal LD reels. Look at the weights compared to the same size dual drag reels listed. The Okuma and Penn are near 33oz (924 grams) and are built accordingly. The nearest Avet in size is almost half that.

The Avets light weight has it's advantages when you fish the "traditional" southern California techniques that it was designed for. However, it is not at the top of most peoples list for a deep drop reel with heavy lead. It's a reel for light weights most of the time, with good capability when more drag is needed quickly (ie need to push to full to stop a run) some of the time. But they eat bearings when you do.

Classic star drag reels with mechanical dog and ratchet anti-reverse are the most reliable choice for deep drop lead year in, year out.

It's just a case of what kind of refinement you want on a given day like Keta posted when he goes to the Raptor dual drag and it's resulting better distribution of axial loads.

For the exact same fishing you do not get more reliability for more money when you go from Star Drag to LD reels. Has never, ever been the case. What you get in an LD reel is more performance in some areas we value (ie, higher potential drag for the size, 2-speed etc), but more maintenance hassles.

best regards

[jaypeegee]

Any merit in this train of thought?

http://www.thesportingwanglers.co.uk/nick-s-blog/nick-s-thoughts/lever-drag-reels


"If a thrust bearing (designed to take axial loads) was placed in the side plate, the ball race was then installed and the spur gear bearing surface was machined slightly longer than the width of the ball race, then when the drag was operated the axial loading would be placed on to the thrust bearing designed to withstand these forces. The axial load on the ball race supporting the spur gear would be eliminated and increased drag presures could be applied without any handle binding issues."

[Keta]

The cure would be to replace the deep groove pinion bearing (inherently weak) with a flanged angular contact bearing that is designed to take both axial and thrust loading.

[jaypeegee]

The cure would be to replace the deep groove pinion bearing (inherently weak) with a flanged angular contact bearing that is designed to take both axial and thrust loading.

Hi

you have written "the cure"

Am I to in infer this is the ONLY cure or solution as you have used "the" and not "a" or is it the best solution and that a thrust bearing is better than the current bearing by X%?

Seriously, I am not trolling. I have been reading this site and others rather intensively , trying to play catch up, and a considered response will be welcomed.

Alan began a conversation on the WorldSeaFishing forum with the guy that posted this but the conversation didn't go anywhere and as Angular contact bearings have a significant cost compared to a thrust bearing solution I asked whether there was merit in this as an option


Admittedly, It is hard finding one that conforms to the imperial specs but why bother searching for a correct sized example if this solution has an inherent flaw I am ignorant to.

[Robert Janssen]

Still working on it... it takes time. I'm experimenting with an alternative bearing arrangement in the meantime. Results? Weell, some good, some not so good. As expected. Needs some fine tuning.



.

[Keta]

Am I to in infer this is the ONLY cure or solution as you have used "the" and not "a" or is it the best solution and that a thrust bearing is better than the current bearing by X%?

As far as I'm concerned it is, you could put a thrust bearing between the side plate and the spool shaft but that's a poor fix.

[jaypeegee]

Am I to in infer this is the ONLY cure or solution as you have used "the" and not "a" or is it the best solution and that a thrust bearing is better than the current bearing by X%?

As far as I'm concerned it is, you could put a thrust bearing between the side plate and the spool shaft but that's a poor fix.

Hi

Appreciate the response.
Please note: If my choice of words or phrasing is offensive , Please try to look past that.. I struggle with the written word and have many "filtering" issues when trying to communicate. If I do come off as disrespectful. Feel free to call me out on it either publicly or in PM and I will amend or explain what I tried to write better to get to the info meant  and past any inadvertent insult.

I have asked questions in the General thread about the avets I own - which is why I have an interest in this.

Where you clarify you post and say that the use of a thrust bearing is a poor fix.
Could you explain that a little more please?

I assume that there is an inherent issue with the Thrust bearing as a cheaper alternative to the Angular Bearing solution.
What would that be?


I wonder if it could be quantified like this:
If a deep groove bearing (status quo) @ 1 - 20 dollars approx. depending on quality Choosing a midway 10 dollar option for the following.
Angular bearing @ ~120 dollars
Thrust bearing @~30 dollars

Is the angular bearing 12 times better than the existing solution?
Is the Angular bearing 4 times better than the thrust bearing solution
Is the thrust bearing 3 times better than the existing bearing?

I look forward to your thoughts.

Also: I care about this mainly in the abstract. I do not intend to ever over tax the Avet in terms of drag. I have no need nor desire to do this.
If I apply any mods it will be for a higher tolerance to prevent failure,  increase enjoyment and the longevity of the reel.

However, learning from you and the others here is reward in itself and I find your observations and experiences stimulating so many thanks

[johndtuttle]

Am I to in infer this is the ONLY cure or solution as you have used "the" and not "a" or is it the best solution and that a thrust bearing is better than the current bearing by X%?

As far as I'm concerned it is, you could put a thrust bearing between the side plate and the spool shaft but that's a poor fix.

Hi

Appreciate the response.
Please note: If my choice of words or phrasing is offensive , Please try to look past that.. I struggle with the written word and have many "filtering" issues when trying to communicate. If I do come off as disrespectful. Feel free to call me out on it either publicly or in PM and I will amend or explain what I tried to write better to get to the info meant  and past any inadvertent insult.

I have asked questions in the General thread about the avets I own - which is why I have an interest in this.

Where you clarify you post and say that the use of a thrust bearing is a poor fix.
Could you explain that a little more please?

I assume that there is an inherent issue with the Thrust bearing as a cheaper alternative to the Angular Bearing solution.
What would that be?


I wonder if it could be quantified like this:
If a deep groove bearing (status quo) @ 1 - 20 dollars approx. depending on quality Choosing a midway 10 dollar option for the following.
Angular bearing @ ~120 dollars
Thrust bearing @~30 dollars

Is the angular bearing 12 times better than the existing solution?
Is the Angular bearing 4 times better than the thrust bearing solution
Is the thrust bearing 3 times better than the existing bearing?

I look forward to your thoughts.

Also: I care about this mainly in the abstract. I do not intend to ever over tax the Avet in terms of drag. I have no need nor desire to do this.
If I apply any mods it will be for a higher tolerance to prevent failure,  increase enjoyment and the longevity of the reel.

However, learning from you and the others here is reward in itself and I find your observations and experiences stimulating so many thanks

Hey Jay,

So far so good as near as I can tell. Looks like you are just after info and are curious.

Anyways, few of us here are trained engineers and apply what we know from one area to this issue as best we can. My professional training is irrelevant but I did have a year of college physics that I apply to my understanding of these issues as well a as a background in consumer product development in a previous career and will try and explain as best I can.

There is no direct price to performance ratio to be found in any of these solutions. The cheapest (an oil injected bushing) would last the longest but would have the highest rolling resistance and when loaded axially would have higher friction so it wouldn't fish as well (handle would get stiff). The standard bearing would be reasonably cheap, would have the lowest rolling resistance, but starts to generate friction and damage as the axial load increases on the inner race and would have the shortest life. But it's relatively cheap too. The angular contact bearing is not maximized for rolling speed but handles axial load better and would generate far less friction from that as well but are hard to find and usually prohibitively expensive.

So each has it own caveats and performance characteristics and each has it's roll/role (pun intended) in the mechanical world but they are designed for specific individual tasks but we are asking them to do two. The standard Avet pinion bearing is asked to do things two things: to support the spool shaft and to support axial loads as you crank down on the Lever Drag but the bearing is really only designed to support the spool shaft. Avet apparently believes that if their reel is fished within it's limits that their choice is the sweet spot for price/performance and customer happiness. You will wear them out but get a good value for your dollar between replacements and some never have to replace theirs as they don't push them as hard.

There is no free lunch and they are aware of what you gain with their reel (light weight) over more robust designs. Their engineers probably know more about this issue than anyone we know and certainly more than I ever will. They simply cannot solve this issue without increasing the cost or size/weight of their reels and pass that cost to you.

ie some companies use larger pinion bearings as a "work around" for this issue but this necessitates a completely different rt. side plate receptacle for the bearing that increases the cost and weight of the machined rt side plate. You can also engineer solutions on the left side and again, this increases the weight/thickness of the left side plate. There is no free lunch....

You bought one of the best values  and lightest weight lever drag reels made in the world. They are slim and light for a reason....Unfortunately, it cannot do everything and has limits.

If you found an angular contact bearing you could easily pay 10-20 times what a standard abec 5 quality bearing costs. It would last far longer with perfect maintenance or could be destroyed the first trip if you didn't pack it with marine grease and it got salt inside. This also has probably gone into Avet's thinking...you can imagine the customer service nightmare when someone wrecks it with salt the first weekend and is then told that it will be $125 for the bearing and $25 for labor...And there are probably a lot of people that would say you would have to be crazy to stick a $125 bearing in a saltwater fishing reel.

best

[Keta]

Please note: If my choice of words or phrasing is offensive , Please try to look past that..

No problem

Where you clarify you post and say that the use of a thrust bearing is a poor fix.
Could you explain that a little more please?

A angular contact bearing is designed for this application, a thrust bearing/radial load bearing combination is a "patch" and it will put the thrust load on a thin spot on the side plate.

I assume that there is an inherent issue with the Thrust bearing as a cheaper alternative to the Angular Bearing solution.
Yup, it's a cost issue.

I wonder if it could be quantified like this:
If a deep groove bearing (status quo) @ 1 - 20 dollars approx. depending on quality Choosing a midway 10 dollar option for the following.
Angular bearing @ ~120 dollars
Thrust bearing @~30 dollars

I don't understand the question but Avet sells their bearings for around $5.00 each.  If they ordered angular contact bearings in volume they should be considerably cheeper than $120.


Is the angular bearing 12 times better than the existing solution?
Is the Angular bearing 4 times better than the thrust bearing solution
Is the thrust bearing 3 times better than the existing bearing?

Angular contact bearings will cure the cracking pinion bearing problem, at some point the side load will start to load up the handle no mater what bearings are used.

[jaypeegee]

Cheers for that

Mainly I saw "There is no free lunch" and I couldn't agree more.
Just so I am clear.
Axial load = sideways pressure caused by the inner race moving towards the handle as drag is increased?
This is bad as it moves the inner race out of it's original position causing pressure on the balls which transfer this to the outer race and in the process some sort of degradation occurs.
An angular bearing reduces this due to the "lip" on the race?

Or is this incorrect

Edit for slow JPG

Cheers Keta

I was trying to work out the relative cost to performance differences tween the three bearing solutions

You both have answered me so I get it better.

Thanks for your time.

[Keta]

Axial load = sideways pressure caused by the inner race moving towards the handle as drag is increased?
This is bad as it moves the inner race out of it's original position causing pressure on the balls which transfer this to the outer race and in the process some sort of degradation occurs.
An angular bearing reduces this due to the "lip" on the race?

Yes. 

If angular contact bearings are used they need to be flanged so they can not be installed backwards.