I notice that leading makes of conventional reels are still putting fibre or graphite washers between the main gear and AR ratchet.
Surely the engineers of these reels do this for good reason, so why some members recomending a carbontex or HT100 washer under the main gear?
Basto
Some people argue that the washer underneath the gear is more of a spacer and does not play much of a part in the drag, it seems the manufacturers fall into this category. There, has to, however be some form of friction between that washer and the main gear as the main gear turns when a fish takes line. Maybe the pressure on this washer is less, but it probably depends from reel to reel. I have had this under gear washer compress/grind away twice now on a Torium and this was a carbontex washer. Hope to hear some other comments.
done that on all of my reels. i think it's smoother.
Quote from: alantani on July 11, 2013, 08:44:25 AM
done that on all of my reels. i think it's smoother.
Yes Alan, I know you have been doing it for quite a while, so why do major brands still use a fibre or graphite washer. The Baja and Torque for example. It would be good to hear an engineer`s opinion.
Quote from: CapeFish on July 11, 2013, 07:41:21 AM
Some people argue that the washer underneath the gear is more of a spacer and does not play much of a part in the drag, it seems the manufacturers fall into this category. There, has to, however be some form of friction between that washer and the main gear as the main gear turns when a fish takes line. Maybe the pressure on this washer is less, but it probably depends from reel to reel. I have had this under gear washer compress/grind away twice now on a Torium and this was a carbontex washer. Hope to hear some other comments.
Do you have pictures of this stripped away washer? On the Torium, The AR ratchet is huge and does not have the AR ratchets a part of the drive shaft like the Newells and Penns, so I don't see what it could have grinded the washer down. If you had a picture of the damaged washer, it would be mush easier to diagnose via this forum. If the washer is deteriorating, then there is something else that is at play there and should be addressed; it is not that the washer is being improperly substituted for an OEM spacer.
Quote from: basto on July 11, 2013, 04:52:21 AM
I notice that leading makes of conventional reels are still putting fibre or graphite washers between the main gear and AR ratchet.
Surely the engineers of these reels do this for good reason, so why some members recomending a carbontex or HT100 washer under the main gear?
Basto
The problem that I have found with the "Stock/OEM spacer" is that they glaze or get stuck to the main gear or AR ratchet. For most sportfishing use, the reels don't see that many hours of actual usage and "hooked up time". I'm not saying this to bash recreational fishermen. It's just, simply, the number of days a reel and fish a reel sees in between service intervals as the guys who would fish the reel for commercial passenger fishing vessels (charterboats) and commercial fishermen. In commercial applications, it is a no-brainer.
The glazing either causes jerkiness or it seizes up entirely leading to unpredictable moments where it will affect drag tension and friction/load transfer from the main gear to the drive shaft. By placing a Carbontex washer (just the mfr. of the washer, which IS carbon fiber) that has been greased with Cal's drag grease prevents salt builup which leads to corrosion and build of oxidation in a critical area. Also, the drag washer placed there will decrease the intial startup inertia of the drag system. The amount of force required to break the frictional forces of the drag system upon initial load transfer (i.e. on hookup)decreases and is as equivalent to the drag setting you set. We are talking fractions of total drag setting set. Basically, it's better than what manufacturers are putting in place. Having something there to mediate the load transfer aside from that spacer is like a
stall converter in any vehicle with an automatic transmission. The purpose of the stall converter is to transfer load once enough load is going one way or the other. It acts only for a short time, but it makes a huge difference when cranking on fish or when it is running putting strain on the drag system and AR system.
Put simply, it's smoother.The amount of actual engineering that goes into reels is tough. As a manufacturer, they are trying their best to compete with other mfrs. who are building reels overseas. Unfortunately, the mfrs. with reels that are designed well go out of business (i.e. Newell and ProGear) because they are putting quality above overhead. With a set overhead to meet competitive price points, things are bound to be missed. Hence, the modificiation of adding the HT-100/Carbontex washers in lieu of the plastic/composite (i.e. Shimano Dartanium spacer washers which are brittle and good out of the box, at best). Manufacturing is all the same, regardless of the industry. A manual transmission on an older truck I had used plastic plugs to seal the transmission in one area. It wasn't until the next generation, 4 years later, that they changed to stainless steel freeze plugs in place of those plastic plugs. I ended up having to find the later generation transmission after my original transmission failed while driving to the airport's long term parking lot to fix a hospital's radiosurgery system that was down.
Carbon fiber & fiber washers have to both be regreased periodically. Both need maintinence. Didn't you ever see a glazed CF washer?
The CF washers with grease will glaze eventually, but nowhere near the level that the OEM ones do. You don't have to use a knife to pry them/cut them off the AR Ratchet or off the drifeshaft. I do not recall stating they never glaze. I have to go through my reels about twice a season since I'm out over 100 days on the water fishing. Maybe add another 100 for crabbing.
(http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p133/jon8han/2013-07-11_16-55-01_298_zps54de1c88.jpg) (http://s127.photobucket.com/user/jon8han/media/2013-07-11_16-55-01_298_zps54de1c88.jpg.html)
The top one is the old one. The bottom is a brand new spacer. They wear down eventually too.
(http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p133/jon8han/2013-07-11_16-56-34_342_zpsfbdbe6f3.jpg) (http://s127.photobucket.com/user/jon8han/media/2013-07-11_16-56-34_342_zpsfbdbe6f3.jpg.html)
Very informative,clear and concise. Thanks so much for making that info available.
Bob
Which brings us back to this. https://docs.google.com/document/d/1W2ghsIY94YPnBYS9QhND-p_tpbvAJHGxilDgmlH4wxY/edit?pli=1 (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1W2ghsIY94YPnBYS9QhND-p_tpbvAJHGxilDgmlH4wxY/edit?pli=1)
FWIW, I'm not on either side of this debate. I have changed out many of my reels drags to Carbontex or HT100. Of those that I've changed out, some have a carbon washer under the main gear and some still have the stock fiber washer. I have not noticed any significant difference between the two.
X2 8)
Bucktail
That document explained the situation perfectly for me. Much appreciated!!
Bucktail,
Those are some valid arguments for the delrin/teflon washer that are included in that kit. What you do gain from the CF washer is more usable drag surface area. What that will do is decrease the overall friction that each individual drag washer that makes up the entire drag system is subjected to. Though gaining one extra pound (more like a few extra lbs.) of drag pressure at higher ranges doesn't seem like a lot, that will add longevity to your drag system because the applied load will be spread out over an additional drag washer. That means that the psi on each contact patch of drag washer to metal surface is decreased. We aren't speaking about a linear load curve. This would change depending on the drag setting being run. By adding CF in this location, we are creating a smoother felt drag. Note that surface area is not a linear calculation. It is exponential. Adding a pound to a few pounds at the high end means a lot more at the lower, real world drag settings. The amount of drag you gain will depend on usable surface area (diameter) of the AR Ratchet, surface area of the main gear, surface area due to diameter of the CF washer used, and the drag setting used.
In a test environment using a static load test, you may not notice this unless you are using some very sophisticated measuring devices which measure dynamically over a time variable. When you are gaining line on a fish, but that head turns on you and he starts running, you will feel the difference in how softly or harshly that drag engages. The harsher the drag engages, the more damage you are doing to wherever that hook is embedded. You want to cushion any of the pull on that area, no matter how brief that may be. An abrupt wall of drag pressure as the fish is headshaking or etc., will cause problem such as you losing that fish. Fishing is a dynamic art. It is about using the rod's action to soften those headshakes, but the reel must work in that area too. There is a soft, firm drag and there are on/off drags. We want smooth drag engagement as we transition from gaining line to giving line. There is much to gain by going to the CF under the main gear. It's only worthwhile if you have the ability to notice what you are gaining and realize there may be a theoretical tradeoff depending on your application. The difference between ordinary greased drags and extraordinary greased drags is just that little extra. I, too, have left the stock washer in place. I no longer do it. I want to gain a little here and a little there to squeeze out the most from my reel. Otherwise, the only thing we're doing is regreasing a stock reel. There is nothing we are gaining over stock trim except greased drags and better application of lubricants.
The problem with plastics such as Delrin (very popular in many fly reels) in fishing reels is the abrasive nature of salt crystals, oxidized particles, and mineral depositing. There is no fix-all material, method, lube, or process due to the high salinity environment of fishing for saltwater species. There is only constant maintenance. As soon as I feel my drags start to get sticky, I go through my reels. Some reels such as the smaller diameter single disc lever drags start to glaze rather quickly after a month's worth of fishing commercially- which is not a bad thing since I'm paying bills well at that point. Nonetheless, fishing on smaller center consoles in rougher seas than say the Southeast to the Gulf will put a lot of mineral/salt deposits on many internal parts of your reel. Salt intrusion is something that can be retarded, at best.
I've been helping Alan with his back log in addition to the reels I acquire and asking him for help when I'm about to pull out all of my hair. I have yet to see one with roached CF under the main gear. I'm not saying that it is impossible because since working on reels, I have seen all kinds of FUBAR, but I have yet to see it. If I do run across it, I will replace it with a CF washer. I have seen normal HT-100s ground to bits due to inadequate rinsing and maintenance. The main reason is salt intrusion (salt crystals) mixed with carbon dust in the drag system.
Quote from: jonathan.han on July 11, 2013, 11:13:21 PM
Quote from: CapeFish on July 11, 2013, 07:41:21 AM
Some people argue that the washer underneath the gear is more of a spacer and does not play much of a part in the drag, it seems the manufacturers fall into this category. There, has to, however be some form of friction between that washer and the main gear as the main gear turns when a fish takes line. Maybe the pressure on this washer is less, but it probably depends from reel to reel. I have had this under gear washer compress/grind away twice now on a Torium and this was a carbontex washer. Hope to hear some other comments.
Do you have pictures of this stripped away washer? On the Torium, The AR ratchet is huge and does not have the AR ratchets a part of the drive shaft like the Newells and Penns, so I don't see what it could have grinded the washer down. If you had a picture of the damaged washer, it would be mush easier to diagnose via this forum. If the washer is deteriorating, then there is something else that is at play there and should be addressed; it is not that the washer is being improperly substituted for an OEM spacer.
Quote from: basto on July 11, 2013, 04:52:21 AM
I notice that leading makes of conventional reels are still putting fibre or graphite washers between the main gear and AR ratchet.
Surely the engineers of these reels do this for good reason, so why some members recomending a carbontex or HT100 washer under the main gear?
Basto
The problem that I have found with the "Stock/OEM spacer" is that they glaze or get stuck to the main gear or AR ratchet. For most sportfishing use, the reels don't see that many hours of actual usage and "hooked up time". I'm not saying this to bash recreational fishermen. It's just, simply, the number of days a reel and fish a reel sees in between service intervals as the guys who would fish the reel for commercial passenger fishing vessels (charterboats) and commercial fishermen. In commercial applications, it is a no-brainer.
The glazing either causes jerkiness or it seizes up entirely leading to unpredictable moments where it will affect drag tension and friction/load transfer from the main gear to the drive shaft. By placing a Carbontex washer (just the mfr. of the washer, which IS carbon fiber) that has been greased with Cal's drag grease prevents salt builup which leads to corrosion and build of oxidation in a critical area. Also, the drag washer placed there will decrease the intial startup inertia of the drag system. The amount of force required to break the frictional forces of the drag system upon initial load transfer (i.e. on hookup)decreases and is as equivalent to the drag setting you set. We are talking fractions of total drag setting set. Basically, it's better than what manufacturers are putting in place. Having something there to mediate the load transfer aside from that spacer is like a stall converter in any vehicle with an automatic transmission. The purpose of the stall converter is to transfer load once enough load is going one way or the other. It acts only for a short time, but it makes a huge difference when cranking on fish or when it is running putting strain on the drag system and AR system. Put simply, it's smoother.
The amount of actual engineering that goes into reels is tough. As a manufacturer, they are trying their best to compete with other mfrs. who are building reels overseas. Unfortunately, the mfrs. with reels that are designed well go out of business (i.e. Newell and ProGear) because they are putting quality above overhead. With a set overhead to meet competitive price points, things are bound to be missed. Hence, the modificiation of adding the HT-100/Carbontex washers in lieu of the plastic/composite (i.e. Shimano Dartanium spacer washers which are brittle and good out of the box, at best). Manufacturing is all the same, regardless of the industry. A manual transmission on an older truck I had used plastic plugs to seal the transmission in one area. It wasn't until the next generation, 4 years later, that they changed to stainless steel freeze plugs in place of those plastic plugs. I ended up having to find the later generation transmission after my original transmission failed while driving to the airport's long term parking lot to fix a hospital's radiosurgery system that was down.
I have posted them before but can't find the post. Also discussed with Dawn, the washers were much thinner than new ones and could have compressed or simply worn away. I have had to replace carbontex washers on a few occasions and I don't even fish that much, but when I do fish they get badly punished. I have had the right side plate of my reel get really hot from a fish running, even with the washer greased with Cals and the drag just getting so weak I had to thumb the reel for about an hour, I just could not stop the fish any other way. This was with a torium 30 and a shark taking a few 400-500m fast runs and several shorter ones. I except that any drag material will fail sooner or later, it is inevitable, no matter what material you use. Unless off course the fishing you do hardly gets the drag working the washers will probably last for years until the material decays. I am going to start using less grease on the washers as an experiment or even try them dry. The dartaniums never did this but they unfortunately snatch
I have also posted on this before. This was a question I have had and seen the results first hand. When installing a cf under the main gear, if the OD is such that it "overlaps" the ratchet teeth then under load, minimal mind you, there will be compression and therefore distortion. This in turn causes the cf material to be deposited on the teeth of the ratchet on the gear sleeve. I've seen the "mung" (for lack of a better word) on the ratchet teeth. If you reduce the OD of the fiber washer to a point that it does not interact with the ratchet teeth, then you are in theory reducing the drag on said reel. Less surface, right? I'm by no means an engineer, but thought that increased surface= more drag surface= more drag. So to change to a delrin/plastic type material would be the choice due to its non deformity properties,no? Especially if the under main washer is not bring anything to the party in regards to useable drag. Just a question.
Bob
Quote from: BMITCH on July 12, 2013, 10:39:33 AM
I have also posted on this before. This was a question I have had and seen the results first hand. When installing a cf under the main gear, if the OD is such that it "overlaps" the ratchet teeth then under load, minimal mind you, there will be compression and therefore distortion. This in turn causes the cf material to be deposited on the teeth of the ratchet on the gear sleeve. I've seen the "mung" (for lack of a better word) on the ratchet teeth. If you reduce the OD of the fiber washer to a point that it does not interact with the ratchet teeth, then you are in theory reducing the drag on said reel. Less surface, right? I'm by no means an engineer, but thought that increased surface= more drag surface= more drag. So to change to a delrin/plastic type material would be the choice due to its non deformity properties,no? Especially if the under main washer is not bring anything to the party in regards to useable drag. Just a question.
Bob
Increased surface area does not increase drag, it helps to dissipate heat though, the drag is determined by how much pressure is placed on the washers.
Quote from: Bucktail on July 12, 2013, 03:01:59 AM
Which brings us back to this. https://docs.google.com/document/d/1W2ghsIY94YPnBYS9QhND-p_tpbvAJHGxilDgmlH4wxY/edit?pli=1 (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1W2ghsIY94YPnBYS9QhND-p_tpbvAJHGxilDgmlH4wxY/edit?pli=1)
FWIW, I'm not on either side of this debate. I have changed out many of my reels drags to Carbontex or HT100. Of those that I've changed out, some have a carbon washer under the main gear and some still have the stock fiber washer. I have not noticed any significant difference between the two.
OK great now I know why mine are all bumbing out, it is always on the bigger reels for shark where I crank the star down to hard. I am thinking of putting a dartanium back under the main gear to avoid this from happening as it shouldn't compress
OK great now I know why mine are all bumbing out, it is always on the bigger reels for shark where I crank the star down to hard. I am thinking of putting a dartanium back under the main gear to avoid this from happening as it shouldn't compress
Capefish, my point exactly. If not more drag. So why not some other material.
Bob
Quote from: BMITCH on July 12, 2013, 12:07:12 PM
OK great now I know why mine are all bumbing out, it is always on the bigger reels for shark where I crank the star down to hard. I am thinking of putting a dartanium back under the main gear to avoid this from happening as it shouldn't compress
Capefish, my point exactly. If not more drag. So why not some other material.
Bob
I happen to have dartanium (which I think is just a marketing name for compressed pencil lead :)) available so will try that first
Jonathan, that was an excellent write-up.
Quote from: jonathan.han on July 12, 2013, 07:36:24 AM
Bucktail,
Those are some valid arguments for the delrin/teflon washer that are included in that kit. What you do gain from the CF washer is more usable drag surface area. What that will do is decrease the overall friction that each individual drag washer that makes up the entire drag system is subjected to. Though gaining one extra pound (more like a few extra lbs.) of drag pressure at higher ranges doesn't seem like a lot, that will add longevity to your drag system because the applied load will be spread out over an additional drag washer. That means that the psi on each contact patch of drag washer to metal surface is decreased. We aren't speaking about a linear load curve. This would change depending on the drag setting being run. By adding CF in this location, we are creating a smoother felt drag. Note that surface area is not a linear calculation. It is exponential. Adding a pound to a few pounds at the high end means a lot more at the lower, real world drag settings. The amount of drag you gain will depend on usable surface area (diameter) of the AR Ratchet, surface area of the main gear, surface area due to diameter of the CF washer used, and the drag setting used.
In a test environment using a static load test, you may not notice this unless you are using some very sophisticated measuring devices which measure dynamically over a time variable. When you are gaining line on a fish, but that head turns on you and he starts running, you will feel the difference in how softly or harshly that drag engages. The harsher the drag engages, the more damage you are doing to wherever that hook is embedded. You want to cushion any of the pull on that area, no matter how brief that may be. An abrupt wall of drag pressure as the fish is headshaking or etc., will cause problem such as you losing that fish. Fishing is a dynamic art. It is about using the rod's action to soften those headshakes, but the reel must work in that area too. There is a soft, firm drag and there are on/off drags. We want smooth drag engagement as we transition from gaining line to giving line. There is much to gain by going to the CF under the main gear. It's only worthwhile if you have the ability to notice what you are gaining and realize there may be a theoretical tradeoff depending on your application. The difference between ordinary greased drags and extraordinary greased drags is just that little extra. I, too, have left the stock washer in place. I no longer do it. I want to gain a little here and a little there to squeeze out the most from my reel. Otherwise, the only thing we're doing is regreasing a stock reel. There is nothing we are gaining over stock trim except greased drags and better application of lubricants.
The problem with plastics such as Delrin (very popular in many fly reels) in fishing reels is the abrasive nature of salt crystals, oxidized particles, and mineral depositing. There is no fix-all material, method, lube, or process due to the high salinity environment of fishing for saltwater species. There is only constant maintenance. As soon as I feel my drags start to get sticky, I go through my reels. Some reels such as the smaller diameter single disc lever drags start to glaze rather quickly after a month's worth of fishing commercially- which is not a bad thing since I'm paying bills well at that point. Nonetheless, fishing on smaller center consoles in rougher seas than say the Southeast to the Gulf will put a lot of mineral/salt deposits on many internal parts of your reel. Salt intrusion is something that can be retarded, at best.
I've been helping Alan with his back log in addition to the reels I acquire. I have yet to see one with roached CF under the main gear. I'm not saying that it is impossible because since working on reels, I have seen all kinds of FUBAR, but I have yet to see it. If I do run across it, I will replace it with a CF washer. I have seen normal HT-100s ground to bits due to inadequate rinsing and maintenance. The main reason is salt intrusion (salt crystals) mixed with carbon dust in the drag system.
Just for clarification, I did not write the article I linked to. That was written by Aaron (Reel Speed)
Quote
Increased surface area does not increase drag, it helps to dissipate heat though, the drag is determined by how much pressure is placed on the washers.
With a smaller diameter AR ratchet, you will be forced to use a smaller washer. However, I have placed uncut larger washers in there and have not seen any ill-effects from the "mung" (a combination of oil, grease, drag grease, and carbon dust/loose fibers). There is no effect on the reel's performance with this mung. Increasing surface area will equal more drag.
If it dissipates heat, then your drag system will experience less fade and more usable drag if the fight is long. Your car brakes lose braking power with heat since friction is reduced due to heat buildup. The pressure applied to this washer will be greater since it is is concentrated on a smaller area (i.e. more psi). Dissipating heat would come from the fact that you are using drag grease on the under main gear washer and that allows the bridge plate and the rest of the reel to be used as a heat sink since the grease will transfer thermal buildup from the drag system to the frame via the bridge plate and gear sleeve.
The washer, when larger than the AR ratchet, will only be as effective as the smallest diameter of the area applying force. In a Penn/Newell, it is the AR ratchet. IF one side is being ground up by the overlapping of the washer, that side is pretty much ineffective. The other side, however, is still applying force. You cannot view this washer as doing nothing.
The first washer that goes into the main gear is, a lot of times, ineffective for one side since it is usually fused to the main gear and needs to be pried out. Just an observation when salt is introduced there.
If fishing with higher drag settings, I would recommend going to a lever drag. A star drag design has antiquated limitations that lever drags have addressed. If you must use your Star drag for drags over 15lbs., then you will be experiencing these issues. It is not because of inadequate materials. It is because of the limitations of the star drag design. Any material used there at those drag settings will cause issues of one form or another. I wouldn't think of using a star drag for line classes over 40lb. Over 40lbs and I'd rather have a low gear setting. I could do it with 50, but why? I understand though, Newell and some Penn guys are always telling, "From my cold, dead hands!"
Quote from: Bucktail on July 12, 2013, 05:59:37 PM
Quote from: jonathan.han on July 12, 2013, 07:36:24 AM
Just for clarification, I did not write the article I linked to. That was written by Aaron (Reel Speed)
No problem. When we are speaking at theory level and when trying to use stars for heavy drags, it'll never stop since we are all speaking theoretically. To solve the problem, mankind invented lever drags.
I filed out the inside of a 4/0 washer(ht-100) and ut it under my 9/0 main gear, got a significant increase in drag. Like 33lbs versus 23. If i lock it all the way down, to the point of no return, i bottom out my 50lb drag scale. not gonna dothat on a fish without serious upgrades
Quote from: Bunnlevel Sharker on August 11, 2013, 05:57:04 PM
I filed out the inside of a 4/0 washer(ht-100) and ut it under my 9/0 main gear,
Grayson, why did you use that washer instead if a 6-114 or 6-115? BTW your modified 4/0 washer definately works, as you are getting some nice drag numbers.
A friend told me it would work and I had extra ones laying around ;D
Quote from: Bunnlevel Sharker on August 13, 2013, 11:58:01 PM
A friend told me it would work and I had extra ones laying around ;D
That is good enough for me. ;D
Quote from: basto on July 11, 2013, 04:52:21 AM
I notice that leading makes of conventional reels are still putting fibre or graphite washers between the main gear and AR ratchet.
Surely the engineers of these reels do this for good reason, so why some members recomending a carbontex or HT100 washer under the main gear?
Basto
I think some members here do it, probably because other members do ;). I have studied this intensively, and also asked ABU why they still use a high friction material under the main gear on the Revos . The reason for that is pretty simple, you want the main drag washers inside the main gear to do the work, not the the one under the main gear. By replacing this with a CF washer, the effect is pretty much the same, so if it makes you feel better, do it..
All gears settles with use, so if you change the washer under the main gear, be 100% sure, it has the same thickness as the one replaced. If not, change the main gear with it. This is to avoid, that you loose any smoothness, related to the gearing.
I use CF under the main gear, but that is because it is much more durable than other materials.
I must admit I have been reluctant to replace the under gear washer w/CF on the larger reels that I service.
It's true this washer increases the drag's overall smoothness and seems to typically level out the drag curve spikes (both static moreso, and dynamic friction), similar to greasing the drag washers or converting to a tighter/smoother weave drag washer CF material. It also seems likely that it would increase (modestly) overall drag range, and smoothness due to spreading out the load more, and allowing the drag to be fished at a lower percentage of max available. CF is also know as a durable material so these all seem like good reasons to use the CF under the main gear.
I've also noticed the CF washer seems more compressable, and is exposed (to carying degrees based on its outter diameter) to the dog and rachet. I guess it seems like it could interfer under heavier loads, and that a compressable washer here might also interfere with smoothness at higher drag settings. I guess I'm thinking that for instance if under high load some CF washers inevitably stick to their metal counterparts within the main gear this is normal, and there are others to maintain smoothness, but if the under gear washer starts hesitating or sticking under load it is counter effective to the desired effect of overall drag smoothness putting it there was meant to accomplish? Also, in it's open location (coated w/Cal's) it is none the less likely to be exposed to standard grease which could accelerate degradation. I guess I'm trusting that the reel many factors have thought this one through to some extent too, I mean there has to be some reason (other then cost) they tend to chose the same material for their under gear washers.
I've been wondering if Teflon washers (as are commonly utilized in many of the large/high drag lever drag models..I.E under cam) might work very well under the main gear on these larger reels? I mean they are silky smooth, largely uncompressable, and impervious to salt and seemingly largely immune to significant changes in their performance despite corrosion in adjacent parts. Seems like they would achieve the result of keeping the drag smoother under load, without the other potential pitfalls of CF. Maybe I'm missing something here. In either case I don't like to experiment with my customer's reels. Especially if they are being heavily used to catch expensive fish, or please high paying clients.
Am I missing something or just thinking crazy here?
John
Good thinking John. I have access to some Teflon and a cutting tool they use at work for making gaskets for steam lines. I will be cutting some for my 12 and 14/0's. ;D
Ahhhh, the old under the main gear washer debate. I'm still on the fence as to which one to use. I have concerns about the cf compressing and coming into "play" with the teeth of the sleeve. In another thread a member here(Brocshro) had this washer chewed up when he used a cf under the main gear on his "tank".he was going to use a different one next( I believe the stock penn) and see what came of it. This washer is there for a reason. I don't think it's just a sacrificial spacer. My thought is that the top or side that comes in contact with the main gear is actually the friction side and the lower or side that is exposed to the sleeve teeth is more or less stationary. Then the first washer inside the main gear is theoretically fused so only one side is applying friction. This would in theory give you two working drag surfaces. So this still raises a question in my mind...doesn't this under gear washer add to the total drag force? It must or why would we use a drag type material in this position. These questions are well above my pay scale so for the time being I'm going to go with a cf washer which has been cut back so as to not extend way over the teeth of the sleeve. If for no other reason but for esthetics and ease of clean up on future service. If other members here have a better material other than the stock penn washer or cf I would be eager to hear about it.
Bob
I'm going to give the Teflon a shot Bob. I've been using CF's exclusively, But I noticed on my Battle Weary 12/0. The stock red washer had the sleeve teeth wore into it. I was going to take a picture, but it disintegrated when I tried to remove it. Either way, its a disposable item. I just want to see the effects of the Teflon in the bigger senators when I put them through some punishment.
This was my explanation from the Hex gears test:
As you can see, I am using the original fiber washer for under the gear. Sorry guys, but for me this one is working out a little better than carbon fiber there, it might be the high settings Undecided, still, you use what works for you.
Lee, your metal washers and inserts look and performed great...excellent job on those Wink.
Daron, I took a couple of shots, but this is the best, sorry
By the way John, the carbon washer for under the gear gave no drag when all the hex washers failed on one of my previous test. Those are more for smoothness than drag numbers, that's my take on it anyway.
Daron, to me the red fiber washers are working best, but the fiber washer will also work. They do get worn.... just like anything else.
Just my two cents, as stated above, use what works for you.
Sal
I've tried the teflon washers under the gear on Jigmasters and Squidders and found no real benefit over the red fiber washers. After a season of diamond jigging bass and bluefish they had the same sleeve teeth impressions as the red fiber washers and became somewhat distorted. However they did not become brittle and crumble when you removed them from the sleeve like the fiber ones do.
I'm ok with teeth impression as long as they don't tear apart. The red do get dry after some time, but they do last for quite a while.
This is why we experiment....
Obviously it's a matter of preference and confidence in what your going to use. And for that matter size(OD). The real question I have does one material excel as far as drag is concerned. We are in these reels a lot, so changing out the washer is really not all that difficult. But this washer definetly has SOME effect on the drag. So has anyone done a drag test using the different materials? Just a thought.
If the OD of the CF under washer is the same diameter as the root diameter of the ratchet teeth on the gear sleeve you eliminate the possibility of AR dog interaction.
Quote from: Keta on February 05, 2014, 03:03:01 PM
If the OD of the CF under washer is the same diameter as the root diameter of the ratchet teeth on the gear sleeve you eliminate the possibility of AR dog interaction.
My point exactly lee!
Newell original 4-stack drag system was proably the best design to demonstrate the benefits of using an under gear drag washer. the undergear drag washer was the same as what was used in the gear stack, and separated a drag plate on the gear sleeve and the main gear. it allowed another drag surface to increase the drag numbers slightly (3# or so). This was my convincing reason as to why I use CF for under the main gear.
I think Delrin and CF combo would be a good fit. Delrin is a bearing material that can take a lot of abuse while maintaining form. I would place this between the gear sleeve and the under gear CF washer. The problem is I don't know where to find this material in the thickness that I want.
Bryan, I assume your talking about the Newell main gears that do not have the recess in them to fit in the under gear washer? Right? If so wouldn't that cause a spacing problem with the drag stack and the side plate? And if not there, wouldn't possibly cause a gear mesh problem with the main and pinion? Just a thought.
Bryan is talking about this sleeve and the gear that accompanies it has a recess in it for a drag washer:
I was wondering for the smaller reels like the jigmaster and up to the 4/0 or so, if we could use one of Bryan's super thin washer and thin cf to replicate the Newell's system? It should cut down on the issue the chewed up drag.
I have done this exact thing on some of my Newells and it works perfectly. I actually bond one of Bryan's thin washers to the sprocket with Acraglas gel that is used to bed rifle actions. I then use the .5mm CF with Cals and a 5 stack in the gear which gives me a 6 stack drag in my Newell 300s and they are very smooth as well as strong. They pull 32 lb of drag and I fish them around 20.
I have also done this on my 500 series and 600 series.
I use Bryan's 5-stack inside my main gear on my Newell P series (original 4-stack models). I then use a standard size HT-100 in the recessed area underneath the main gear - thus giving me a true 6-stack system...no worries. Don't know how many lbs of drag I get...I'll test them eventually.
Yes to all about the Newell 4-stack system.
Tunalicious, a new carbontex under gear washer is coming your way.
Got it...thanks.
Quote from: Bryan Young on February 05, 2014, 03:58:22 PM
Newell original 4-stack drag system was proably the best design to demonstrate the benefits of using an under gear drag washer. the undergear drag washer was the same as what was used in the gear stack, and separated a drag plate on the gear sleeve and the main gear. it allowed another drag surface to increase the drag numbers slightly (3# or so). This was my convincing reason as to why I use CF for under the main gear.
I think Delrin and CF combo would be a good fit. Delrin is a bearing material that can take a lot of abuse while maintaining form. I would place this between the gear sleeve and the under gear CF washer. The problem is I don't know where to find this material in the thickness that I want.
(http://i1286.photobucket.com/albums/a601/george8322/IMG_0512_zps78ee7f26.jpg)Shimano did the same thing with their Triton Mark1 in 1982
(http://i1286.photobucket.com/albums/a601/george8322/tritonmark1drag_zpsd869e071.jpg)
Bryan - For teflon and delrin try Ebay. I recently purchased 4sheets of teflon (.5mm to 1.5mm thick) approx 100mm x 100mm. They cost approx $4-5.
Basto, that's a great drag set up. A removable keyed washer to support the drag washer under the gear. The washer does not have to be pressed to the sleeve and it can be removed for cleaning and greasing to prevent corrosion issues. Very sharp!!!
[/quote]
(http://i1286.photobucket.com/albums/a601/george8322/IMG_0512_zps78ee7f26.jpg)Shimano did the same thing with their Triton Mark1 in 1982
(http://i1286.photobucket.com/albums/a601/george8322/tritonmark1drag_zpsd869e071.jpg)
[/quote]
So the sleeve has two flat spots that continue all the way down to it's dog gear. A metal keyed washer then a drag washer then the main gear are installed. Can anyone see issues with the main gear riding on a section of the sleeve with flat spots?
it looks good to me!
I can't come up with any downsides. It's so simple. As long as a sideplate can accommodate the the rise in the main gear from the extra washer it should be good to go! No more compressed, distorted fiber washers and the dog will be operating in a cavity with nice flat metal on both sides.
I also have a Mark 2 ( a wider version of Mark 1) and all drag components are in very good condition.
It is a puzzle why Shimano moved from this configuration. May be cost.
I put carbontex drags in both reels and all is going well.
Basto
Quote from: Bucktail on July 12, 2013, 03:01:59 AM
Which brings us back to this. https://docs.google.com/document/d/1W2ghsIY94YPnBYS9QhND-p_tpbvAJHGxilDgmlH4wxY/edit?pli=1 (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1W2ghsIY94YPnBYS9QhND-p_tpbvAJHGxilDgmlH4wxY/edit?pli=1)
FWIW, I'm not on either side of this debate. I have changed out many of my reels drags to Carbontex or HT100. Of those that I've changed out, some have a carbon washer under the main gear and some still have the stock fiber washer. I have not noticed any significant difference between the two.
I agree. I only change the originals when they wear, become brittle etc. and then I use a CF. I haven't noticed any real difference either.