Why carbontex under main gear?

[basto]

I notice that leading makes of conventional reels are still putting fibre or graphite washers between the main gear and AR ratchet.
Surely the engineers of these reels do this for good reason, so why some members recomending a carbontex or HT100 washer under the main gear?
Basto

[CapeFish]

Some people argue that the washer underneath the gear is more of a spacer and does not play much of a part in the drag, it seems the manufacturers fall into this category. There, has to, however be some form of friction between that washer and the main gear as the main gear turns when a fish takes line. Maybe the pressure on this washer is less, but it probably depends from reel to reel. I have had this under gear washer compress/grind away twice now on a Torium and this was a carbontex washer. Hope to hear some other comments.

[alantani]

done that on all of my reels.  i think it's smoother. 

[basto]

done that on all of my reels.  i think it's smoother. 

Yes Alan, I know you have been doing it for quite a while, so why do major brands still use a fibre or graphite washer. The Baja and Torque for example. It would be good to hear an engineer`s opinion.

[jonathan.han]

Some people argue that the washer underneath the gear is more of a spacer and does not play much of a part in the drag, it seems the manufacturers fall into this category. There, has to, however be some form of friction between that washer and the main gear as the main gear turns when a fish takes line. Maybe the pressure on this washer is less, but it probably depends from reel to reel. I have had this under gear washer compress/grind away twice now on a Torium and this was a carbontex washer. Hope to hear some other comments.

Do you have pictures of this stripped away washer? On the Torium, The AR ratchet is huge and does not have the AR ratchets a part of the drive shaft like the Newells and Penns, so I don't see what it could have grinded the washer down. If you had a picture of the damaged washer, it would be mush easier to diagnose via this forum. If the washer is deteriorating, then there is something else that is at play there and should be addressed; it is not that the washer is being improperly substituted for an OEM spacer.

I notice that leading makes of conventional reels are still putting fibre or graphite washers between the main gear and AR ratchet.
Surely the engineers of these reels do this for good reason, so why some members recomending a carbontex or HT100 washer under the main gear?
Basto

The problem that I have found with the "Stock/OEM spacer" is that they glaze or get stuck to the main gear or AR ratchet. For most sportfishing use, the reels don't see that many hours of actual usage and "hooked up time". I'm not saying this to bash recreational fishermen. It's just, simply, the number of days a reel and fish a reel sees in between service intervals as the guys who would fish the reel for commercial passenger fishing vessels (charterboats) and commercial fishermen. In commercial applications, it is a no-brainer.

The glazing either causes jerkiness or it seizes up entirely leading to unpredictable moments where it will affect drag tension and friction/load transfer from the main gear to the drive shaft. By placing a Carbontex washer (just the mfr. of the washer, which IS carbon fiber) that has been greased with Cal's drag grease prevents salt builup which leads to corrosion and build of oxidation in a critical area. Also, the drag washer placed there will decrease the intial startup inertia of the drag system. The amount of force required to break the frictional forces of the drag system upon initial load transfer (i.e. on hookup)decreases and is as equivalent to the drag setting you set. We are talking fractions of total drag setting set. Basically, it's better than what manufacturers are putting in place. Having something there to mediate the load transfer aside from that spacer is like a stall converter in any vehicle with an automatic transmission. The purpose of the stall converter is to transfer load once enough load is going one way or the other. It acts only for a short time, but it makes a huge difference when cranking on fish or when it is running putting strain on the drag system and AR system. Put simply, it's smoother.

The amount of actual engineering that goes into reels is tough. As a manufacturer, they are trying their best to compete with other mfrs. who are building reels overseas. Unfortunately, the mfrs. with reels that are designed well go out of business (i.e. Newell and ProGear) because they are putting quality above overhead. With a set overhead to meet competitive price points, things are bound to be missed. Hence, the modificiation of adding the HT-100/Carbontex washers in lieu of the plastic/composite (i.e. Shimano Dartanium spacer washers which are brittle and good out of the box, at best). Manufacturing is all the same, regardless of the industry. A manual transmission on an older truck I had used plastic plugs to seal the transmission in one area. It wasn't until the next generation, 4 years later, that they changed to stainless steel freeze plugs in place of those plastic plugs. I ended up having to find the later generation transmission after my original transmission failed while driving to the airport's long term parking lot to fix a hospital's radiosurgery system that was down.

[RowdyW]

Carbon fiber & fiber washers have to both be regreased periodically. Both need maintinence. Didn't you ever see a glazed CF washer?

[jonathan.han]

The CF washers with grease will glaze eventually, but nowhere near the level that the OEM ones do.  You don't have to use a knife to pry them/cut them off the AR Ratchet or off the drifeshaft. I do not recall stating they never glaze. I have to go through my reels about twice a season since I'm out over 100 days on the water fishing. Maybe add another 100 for crabbing.


The top one is the old one. The bottom is a brand new spacer. They wear down eventually too.

[BMITCH]

Very informative,clear and concise. Thanks so much for making that info available.
Bob

[Bucktail]

Which brings us back to this.  https://docs.google.com/document/d/1W2ghsIY94YPnBYS9QhND-p_tpbvAJHGxilDgmlH4wxY/edit?pli=1

FWIW, I'm not on either side of this debate.  I have changed out many of my reels drags to Carbontex or HT100.  Of those that I've changed out, some have a carbon washer under the main gear and some still have the stock fiber washer.  I have not noticed any significant difference between the two.

[RowdyW]

    X2   

[basto]

Bucktail
That document explained the situation perfectly for me. Much appreciated!!

[jonathan.han]

Bucktail,

Those are some valid arguments for the delrin/teflon washer that are included in that kit. What you do gain from the CF washer is more usable drag surface area. What that will do is decrease the overall friction that each individual drag washer that makes up the entire drag system is subjected to. Though gaining one extra pound (more like a few extra lbs.) of drag pressure at higher ranges doesn't seem like a lot, that will add longevity to your drag system because the applied load will be spread out over an additional drag washer. That means that the psi on each contact patch of drag washer to metal surface is decreased. We aren't speaking about a linear load curve. This would change depending on the drag setting being run. By adding CF in this location, we are creating a smoother felt drag. Note that surface area is not a linear calculation. It is exponential. Adding a pound to a few pounds at the high end means a lot more at the lower, real world drag settings. The amount of drag you gain will depend on usable surface area (diameter) of the AR Ratchet, surface area of the main gear, surface area due to diameter of the CF washer used, and the drag setting used.

In a test environment using a static load test, you may not notice this unless you are using some very sophisticated measuring devices which measure dynamically over a time variable. When you are gaining line on a fish, but that head turns on you and he starts running, you will feel the difference in how softly or harshly that drag engages. The harsher the drag engages, the more damage you are doing to wherever that hook is embedded. You want to cushion any of the pull on that area, no matter how brief that may be. An abrupt wall of drag pressure as the fish is headshaking or etc., will cause problem such as you losing that fish. Fishing is a dynamic art. It is about using the rod's action to soften those headshakes, but the reel must work in that area too. There is a soft, firm drag and there are on/off drags. We want smooth drag engagement as we transition from gaining line to giving line. There is much to gain by going to the CF under the main gear. It's only worthwhile if you have the ability to notice what you are gaining and realize there may be a theoretical tradeoff depending on your application. The difference between ordinary greased drags and extraordinary greased drags is just that little extra. I, too, have left the stock washer in place. I no longer do it. I want to gain a little here and a little there to squeeze out the most from my reel. Otherwise, the only thing we're doing is regreasing a stock reel. There is nothing we are gaining over stock trim except greased drags and better application of lubricants.

The problem with plastics such as Delrin (very popular in many fly reels) in fishing reels is the abrasive nature of salt crystals, oxidized particles, and mineral depositing. There is no fix-all material, method, lube, or process due to the high salinity environment of fishing for saltwater species. There is only constant maintenance. As soon as I feel my drags start to get sticky, I go through my reels. Some reels such as the smaller diameter single disc lever drags start to glaze rather quickly after a month's worth of fishing commercially- which is not a bad thing since I'm paying bills well at that point.  Nonetheless, fishing on smaller center consoles in rougher seas than say the Southeast to the Gulf will put a lot of mineral/salt deposits on many internal parts of your reel. Salt intrusion is something that can be retarded, at best.

I've been helping Alan with his back log in addition to the reels I acquire and asking him for help when I'm about to pull out all of my hair. I have yet to see one with roached CF under the main gear. I'm not saying that it is impossible because since working on reels, I have seen all kinds of FUBAR, but I have yet to see it. If I do run across it, I will replace it with a CF washer. I have seen normal HT-100s ground to bits due to inadequate rinsing and maintenance. The main reason is salt intrusion (salt crystals) mixed with carbon dust in the drag system.

[CapeFish]

Some people argue that the washer underneath the gear is more of a spacer and does not play much of a part in the drag, it seems the manufacturers fall into this category. There, has to, however be some form of friction between that washer and the main gear as the main gear turns when a fish takes line. Maybe the pressure on this washer is less, but it probably depends from reel to reel. I have had this under gear washer compress/grind away twice now on a Torium and this was a carbontex washer. Hope to hear some other comments.

Do you have pictures of this stripped away washer? On the Torium, The AR ratchet is huge and does not have the AR ratchets a part of the drive shaft like the Newells and Penns, so I don't see what it could have grinded the washer down. If you had a picture of the damaged washer, it would be mush easier to diagnose via this forum. If the washer is deteriorating, then there is something else that is at play there and should be addressed; it is not that the washer is being improperly substituted for an OEM spacer.

I notice that leading makes of conventional reels are still putting fibre or graphite washers between the main gear and AR ratchet.
Surely the engineers of these reels do this for good reason, so why some members recomending a carbontex or HT100 washer under the main gear?
Basto

The problem that I have found with the "Stock/OEM spacer" is that they glaze or get stuck to the main gear or AR ratchet. For most sportfishing use, the reels don't see that many hours of actual usage and "hooked up time". I'm not saying this to bash recreational fishermen. It's just, simply, the number of days a reel and fish a reel sees in between service intervals as the guys who would fish the reel for commercial passenger fishing vessels (charterboats) and commercial fishermen. In commercial applications, it is a no-brainer.

The glazing either causes jerkiness or it seizes up entirely leading to unpredictable moments where it will affect drag tension and friction/load transfer from the main gear to the drive shaft. By placing a Carbontex washer (just the mfr. of the washer, which IS carbon fiber) that has been greased with Cal's drag grease prevents salt builup which leads to corrosion and build of oxidation in a critical area. Also, the drag washer placed there will decrease the intial startup inertia of the drag system. The amount of force required to break the frictional forces of the drag system upon initial load transfer (i.e. on hookup)decreases and is as equivalent to the drag setting you set. We are talking fractions of total drag setting set. Basically, it's better than what manufacturers are putting in place. Having something there to mediate the load transfer aside from that spacer is like a stall converter in any vehicle with an automatic transmission. The purpose of the stall converter is to transfer load once enough load is going one way or the other. It acts only for a short time, but it makes a huge difference when cranking on fish or when it is running putting strain on the drag system and AR system. Put simply, it's smoother.

The amount of actual engineering that goes into reels is tough. As a manufacturer, they are trying their best to compete with other mfrs. who are building reels overseas. Unfortunately, the mfrs. with reels that are designed well go out of business (i.e. Newell and ProGear) because they are putting quality above overhead. With a set overhead to meet competitive price points, things are bound to be missed. Hence, the modificiation of adding the HT-100/Carbontex washers in lieu of the plastic/composite (i.e. Shimano Dartanium spacer washers which are brittle and good out of the box, at best). Manufacturing is all the same, regardless of the industry. A manual transmission on an older truck I had used plastic plugs to seal the transmission in one area. It wasn't until the next generation, 4 years later, that they changed to stainless steel freeze plugs in place of those plastic plugs. I ended up having to find the later generation transmission after my original transmission failed while driving to the airport's long term parking lot to fix a hospital's radiosurgery system that was down.

I have posted them before but can't find the post. Also discussed with Dawn, the washers were much thinner than new ones and could have compressed or simply worn away. I have had to replace carbontex washers on a few occasions and I don't even fish that much, but when I do fish they get badly punished. I have had the right side plate of my reel get really hot from a fish running, even with the washer greased with Cals and the drag just getting so weak I had to thumb the reel for about an hour, I just could not stop the fish any other way. This was with a torium 30 and a shark taking a few 400-500m fast runs and several shorter ones. I except that any drag material will fail sooner or later, it is inevitable, no matter what material you use. Unless off course the fishing you do hardly gets the drag working the washers will probably last for years until the material decays. I am going to start using less grease on the washers as an experiment or even try them dry. The dartaniums never did this but they unfortunately snatch

[BMITCH]

I have also posted on this before. This was a question I have had and seen the results first hand. When installing a cf under the main gear, if the OD is such that it "overlaps" the ratchet teeth then under load, minimal mind you, there will be compression and therefore distortion. This in turn causes the cf material to be deposited on the teeth of the ratchet on the gear sleeve. I've seen the "mung" (for lack of a better word) on the ratchet teeth. If you reduce the OD of the fiber washer to a point that it does not interact with the ratchet teeth, then you are in theory reducing the drag on said reel. Less surface, right? I'm by no means an engineer, but thought that increased surface= more drag surface= more drag. So to change to a delrin/plastic type material would be the choice due to its non deformity properties,no? Especially if the under main washer is not bring anything to the party in regards to useable drag. Just a question.
Bob

[CapeFish]

I have also posted on this before. This was a question I have had and seen the results first hand. When installing a cf under the main gear, if the OD is such that it "overlaps" the ratchet teeth then under load, minimal mind you, there will be compression and therefore distortion. This in turn causes the cf material to be deposited on the teeth of the ratchet on the gear sleeve. I've seen the "mung" (for lack of a better word) on the ratchet teeth. If you reduce the OD of the fiber washer to a point that it does not interact with the ratchet teeth, then you are in theory reducing the drag on said reel. Less surface, right? I'm by no means an engineer, but thought that increased surface= more drag surface= more drag. So to change to a delrin/plastic type material would be the choice due to its non deformity properties,no? Especially if the under main washer is not bring anything to the party in regards to useable drag. Just a question.
Bob

Increased surface area does not increase drag, it helps to dissipate heat though, the drag is determined by how much pressure is placed on the washers.