This seems like a general question, though for reference my interest currently centers around putting line on a Penn 8500SS.
I keep hearing that these reels (and in general many older reels) don't really love braid; that the line lay is not ideal; and they are prone to wind knots.
Yet i see older reels spooled with braid all the time, and the owners don't seem to be in the process of pulling out their hair in frustration. So what's the secret? How do i get braid to spool well on my SS?
Are certain varieties of braid better than others for these applications? I imagine a line with more body to it (less limp) would do better against wind knots, but I dont know how that would affect line lay.
Does the answer involve spool shims? If so where can i find more detailed info on how to optimize that aspect? My understanding is a thicker shim means the top wrap is further from the top of the spool, so it seems a much thinner shim would be called for when going from thick mono to thin braid. Is this correct?
God so many questions circling around in my brain.
You're right...it does seem like a general question...but I have to be honest...in all my travels I still have not seen a solid answer to why so many say braid is trouble on older reels. In my personal experience, any reel, new or old, that wouldn't spool braid well also would not spool mono well either! It's always a case of improper spool/pickup alignment...like you mentioned about the spool shims. It's amazing, a few thousandths one way or the other can make a huge difference. I think what happens is a spool can be a bit out of alignment with mono and go unnoticed, that stuff will stretch tight as it goes on, align itself into smoother wraps. Then many years later someone tries to put braid on...and it don't stretch...and can get very sloppy easily.
I've found that keeping tension on the line seriously helps braid spool on better. This makes fishing very light lures hard to fish on braid. Many times, I deal with that though, as it is not nearly as annoying as all that line twist trouble from the mono. I hope someone has some more useful advise for you. 8)
There are only to things I can say doe certain, and one happens regardless. Small diameter line and some conventionals don't work because the line slips between the spool and the side plate. This happens regardless of the material used. Also, spinners with soft rollers can get eaten up by braid. I use braid and floro on everything, to me the sensitivity is worth it. I have a Penn 60 with 80# braid on it and it works just fine. You lose the capacity advantage, but 85s have plenty of capacity for anything you would use them for today.
The Man
Quote from: Ron Jones on September 28, 2020, 06:45:19 PM
There are only to things I can say doe certain, and one happens regardless. Small diameter line and some conventionals don't work because the line slips between the spool and the side plate. This happens regardless of the material used. Also, spinners with soft rollers can get eaten up by braid. I use braid and floro on everything, to me the sensitivity is worth it. I have a Penn 60 with 80# braid on it and it works just fine. You lose the capacity advantage, but 85s have plenty of capacity for anything you would use them for today.
The Man
Ok so dumb question: the point of chasing better line lay is for better casting. Isnt that negated by using a heavier line? I mean from my experience the cast-distance-difference between 40 lb ssv2 and 50 lb ssv2 on the sake rod and reel is noteworthy. I imagine using an even heavier braid would be even more noteworthy.
Not really speaking from a super experienced position here, that's why I need to ask such dumb things.
Line lay on spinners is so mysterious. How does a 0.2 mm difference in line diameter (20# braid versus 20# mono) make such a big difference in line lay on a spool that 25 mm high? Can someone explain?
-steve
you already did the best mod for braid line-lay: NO AUTO-BAIL
you mentioned 500yd/50#... I know, when you first switch to braid,
it seems appealing to have "uninterrupted miles" from arbor to business end,
but then you find out how tedious it is to reverse the line or respool a large-capacity reel... also, EXPENSIVE!!!
maybe, spool up w/ 80# as backing & experiment how thin you can go for the final 200+ yds.
(or, you can make your final "casting" line section exactly long enough to fill your 4000-size reel)
I think the wind knots come from the line not being wound on with enough tension casting and retrieving light lures, at least in my limited expierence surf fishing. I tried a lot of different braids and they all were prone to wind knots to varying degrees. As long as you have consistent tension seems to be ok but difficult to do with moving water
Quote from: oc1 on September 28, 2020, 07:56:07 PM
Line lay on spinners is so mysterious. How does a 0.2 mm difference in line diameter (20# braid versus 20# mono) make such a big difference in line lay on a spool that 25 mm high? Can someone explain?
-steve
My understanding is limited but I believe it has to do with the line nit getting close enough to the top of the spool. The end result is the wrap closest to the top on the next layer ends up down in that gap and it just compounds upon itself as more layers go down.
Quote from: philaroman on September 28, 2020, 08:07:35 PM
you already did the best mod for braid line-lay: NO AUTO-BAIL
Mandatory. If i want my bail to flip I'll flip it.
Quote
you mentioned 500yd/50#... I know, when you first switch to braid,
it seems appealing to have "uninterrupted miles" from arbor to business end,
but then you find out how tedious it is to reverse the line or respool a large-capacity reel... also, EXPENSIVE!!!
maybe, spool up w/ 80# as backing & experiment how thin you can go for the final 200+ yds.
(or, you can make your final "casting" line section exactly long enough to fill your 4000-size reel)
I can certainly see your point, and you're definitely not the first to say that to me. And I am definitely that guy. I dont need it to be uninterrupted I just want it to be mostly braid. The 8500SS is no drag monster. My understanding is you can still take down big fish with it but you gotta do it by tiring them out. So to me this is my open water rig. I want the line cap to let em run. I have my LT100 (which is not full braid spool) if I need more power. Heck my 4000 spheros has a much higher max drag.
My plan is likely 20ish yds 20 lb braid 300 yds regular power pro 50 lb and then 150 yds of super slick for casting. Im good for a 150 yd cast on my surf rig with the SSV. So maybe i should do more.
Quote from: Swami805 on September 28, 2020, 09:22:53 PM
I think the wind knots come from the line not being wound on with enough tension casting and retrieving light lures, at least in my limited expierence surf fishing. I tried a lot of different braids and they all were prone to wind knots to varying degrees. As long as you have consistent tension seems to be ok but difficult to do with moving water
in general when I cast out I've learned to take a high grip and hold tension on the line until I reel in all the slack. Most the time at least. I've noticed it makes a difference.
So in talking about this one of my good friends mentioned that he's been fishing his 550SS with braid next to me for years and I've never seen him with a wind knot. And he's right. Maybe I'm making something out of nothing. I'm just trying to go for excellence with this one.
Dobypu not find that braid damages and grooves the line roller on older reels?
Quote from: oc1 on September 28, 2020, 07:56:07 PM
Line lay on spinners is so mysterious. How does a 0.2 mm difference in line diameter (20# braid versus 20# mono) make such a big difference in line lay on a spool that 25 mm high? Can someone explain?
It's not so much the diameter difference...it's more about the
material difference. That braid just doesn't draw itself smoothly onto the spool as mono. Even the least little bit of stretch in that mono causes the wraps to "suck" right onto the spool. Braid just won't do that...a slack wrap or two just lays there exactly as it was laid on...and next thing you know...well you know! And like I said earlier, if that spool alignment is one hair out from perfect, it won't effect mono line lay a bit, but with braid it will stack higher on one end or the other horribly.
Quote from: CapeFish on September 29, 2020, 11:09:58 AM
Do you not find that braid damages and grooves the line roller on older reels?
Sure...it will trash a soft line roller...old
or new...but any good hard line roller will be just fine.
Quote from: JasonGotaPenn on September 28, 2020, 07:26:20 PM
Quote from: Ron Jones on September 28, 2020, 06:45:19 PM
There are only to things I can say doe certain, and one happens regardless. Small diameter line and some conventionals don't work because the line slips between the spool and the side plate. This happens regardless of the material used. Also, spinners with soft rollers can get eaten up by braid. I use braid and floro on everything, to me the sensitivity is worth it. I have a Penn 60 with 80# braid on it and it works just fine. You lose the capacity advantage, but 85s have plenty of capacity for anything you would use them for today.
The Man
Ok so dumb question: the point of chasing better line lay is for better casting. Isnt that negated by using a heavier line? I mean from my experience the cast-distance-difference between 40 lb ssv2 and 50 lb ssv2 on the sake rod and reel is noteworthy. I imagine using an even heavier braid would be even more noteworthy.
Not really speaking from a super experienced position here, that's why I need to ask such dumb things.
My experience is that similar diameter mono and braid cast about the same, and for me the sensitivity of braid is its number one selling point. I hate mono, braid and floro just let you know what's going on with so much higher fidelity. One of these days I'll spool an old Penn with straight floro and I'm certain I'll be ecstatic, I just have them all filled with braid right now.
The Man
ive fished braid on all my SS reels for more than 15 years; surf or boat, no issues with stainless rollers. keep the bush serviced so actually rolls.
I use braid and mono,,,,, :-\ they both have good points and bad,,,, ??? You got to put a couple of feet of mono on the spool before braid,,,to stop the braid from slipping and the distance form the reel to the first eye makes a difference in casting and lay line,,,,, ;) some rods say there braid friendly,,,,,but there not,,,,,and will dig into the eyes,,,,,,,,,,,, ;D
Quote from: Benni3 on September 29, 2020, 06:01:42 PM
...and the distance form the reel to the first eye makes a difference in casting and lay line...
Never heard that before. Can you elaborate further or point me in the direction of where to read more on the topic?
Quote from: JasonGotaPenn on September 29, 2020, 06:10:48 PM
Quote from: Benni3 on September 29, 2020, 06:01:42 PM
...and the distance form the reel to the first eye makes a difference in casting and lay line...
Never heard that before. Can you elaborate further or point me in the direction of where to read more on the topic?
I don't know to much about it,,,,,, ??? a rod builder explained it to me,,,,,, :-[ the size of your reel spool and eye,,,the distance between ^v+Ve+Me+Mf= distance,,,,, :-\ it's more like rocket science to me but a good rod builder could explain it,,,,that's why penn recommends this rod for this reel,,,,,,,, ;D
There's some members here that can help or you can go to striper online to distance caisting or the rod builder form,,,,,, ;) they can help you find the right rod for your reel if have any problems with this,,,,,,,, ;D
Quote from: Benni3 on September 29, 2020, 06:01:42 PM
braid will dig into the eyes,
Quote from: CapeFish on September 29, 2020, 11:09:58 AM
braid damages and grooves the line roller
I still contend that braid is less abrasive than mono when comparing lines of the same diameter.. But, being smaller diameter braid can cut into something easier than fat mono.
Quote from: JasonGotaPenn on September 28, 2020, 11:11:44 PM
I believe it has to do with the line not getting close enough to the top of the spool. The end result is the wrap closest to the top on the next layer ends up down in that gap and it just compounds upon itself as more layers go down.
Quote from: mo65 on September 29, 2020, 02:20:41 PM
It's not so much the diameter difference...it's more about the material difference. That braid just doesn't draw itself smoothly onto the spool as mono. Even the least little bit of stretch in that mono causes the wraps to "suck" right onto the spool. Braid just won't do that...a slack wrap or two just lays there exactly as it was laid on...and next thing you know...well you know! And like I said earlier, if that spool alignment is one hair out from perfect, it won't effect mono line lay a bit, but with braid it will stack higher on one end or the other horribly.
Still don't get it. You guys will have to draw me a picture or something.
-steve
Quote from: oc1 on September 29, 2020, 06:46:46 PM
You guys will have to draw me a picture or something.
With pleasure.
Nice picture!
;D
Quote from: Benni3 on September 29, 2020, 06:30:58 PM
Quote from: JasonGotaPenn on September 29, 2020, 06:10:48 PM
Quote from: Benni3 on September 29, 2020, 06:01:42 PM
...and the distance form the reel to the first eye makes a difference in casting and lay line...
Never heard that before. Can you elaborate further or point me in the direction of where to read more on the topic?
I don't know to much about it,,,,,, ??? a rod builder explained it to me,,,,,, :-[ the size of your reel spool and eye,,,the distance between ^v+Ve+Me+Mf= distance,,,,, :-\ it's more like rocket science to me but a good rod builder could explain it,,,,that's why penn recommends this rod for this reel,,,,,,,, ;D
Spinning reels throw the line off the spool in coils when casting. There is all sorts of nastiness going on with the coils banging into the first guide frame, even wrapping around the frame and eye a little. This goes on to lesser extent for the next several guides. Stiffer lines make nastier coils.
The old style method to address this was to go with bigger eyes, but current designs use only small eyes. The idea is that you are better off choking off the coils at the first guide. The first couple of eyes have to be pretty far away from the blank. The exact distance depends on the height of the reel, the angle the the reel, the length of the rod, and the distance from the reel to the guide.
Guide style and placement will affect casting distance and to a lesser extent accuracy. It will also affect the ability of the rod to load up the lower portion for fighting fish (always a problem for spinners).
Don't see how it is possible for guide style/placement to affect line lay when winding.
There is a thread on guide placement, line banging, etc somewhere on this site.
-J
When I fill spinner spools with braid, I use a line winding machine so that I can lay line on as level as possible all the way to the top and bottom of the spool. If either digs in while casting or fighting a fish, all will be lost. And the top 100 yards really doesn't pose any issues because the top and bottom are packed and the way the line lays, you shouldn't have any grooving as the line does a lot of cris-crossing after that preventing line from digging in. If the fish takes more than 100 yards of line, then I retire the reel as it needs to be unpacked and re-spooled since the top and bottom will no longer be sufficiently packed.
I found that soft braid works best for me, like Daiwa braided lines. I have been fishing Daiwa braid for over 25 years without any issues. My Shimano Twin Drag still catches fish and the braid is the same braid that was put on over 25 years ago. Albeit faded and it's getting down in the spool a little since cutting off frayed sections.
Fused line seems to be the worst as the fuses straight fibers tend to be stiffer than braided lines.