Two questions which can be stupid/dumb maybe not idk lol.
this can apply to any reel that has different sizes under the same series.
First question, does 25 lbs of drag at strike (just using as a reference it really can be any number) on a 30/50/80 (same series reel) define all three to be equally producing true 25lbs of drag at strike when relating to each other? Or does each reel have its "own version" of 25lbs? I bring this up because 25 lbs of drag on a 30 size spool is not the same as 25lbs to turn a 50 or 80 size spool. Can those 25lbs of drag from the 30 size reel be lower if theoretically you could apply it to an 80 size spool? Am I close not close or just far fetched?
Second question, bellville spring configurations. With most of the reels, its all about playing around with the orientation to get the desired drag curve/lbs as I have experienced through my servicing of reels and with the help of you guys, Alan and John. Now, I have also read how different orientations can cause more pressure on the reel than other bellville configurations. Now my question, a stock configuration producing a specific amount of drag lbs, and say an orientation that's more aggressive/stiffer producing the same drag lbs, why would this be detrimental to the reel with the stiffer bellville set up if both are producing the same drag #'s. I can only see it detrimental if surpassing the limits. So in other words if a reel is made to 40/50lbs at strike or whatever the case, re configuring to increase those numbers is already detrimental. but a reconfigured bellville setup producing the recommended drag should not be a problem and really not needed except for when spacing is an issue say like with an old or used up reel where the lateral wear is the cause.
as always thanks for any feedback..
You bring up an interesting set of questions. With regards to the first...
I would say.. yes and no. The at 25 lbs on a small spool is the same as that on a larger spool at that instant. However, the spikes from start/stop/change in speed as well as the changes associated with changing spool diameter (as line is payed off), may vary. A full large spool can typically loose more line before the diameter decreases considerably, and although it's heavier and will have more momentum.. the fulcrum point is further from center as well. I believe that this will typically give you a more consistent running drag, then a smaller spooled reel producing the same drag.
With regards to the second question. You are correct in stating that a steeper drag curve at a given setting still within the reel's max drag will not result in undue forces on components. However, changing the spacing can actually change what that number is (typically when the reel looses freespool). Also, too steep of a curve may give you a max setting past the reel'shimmed design specs. Also, the risk of the drag numbers being too great as the spool diameter decreases.. will also increase. If you push the gear to the limit, you may be playing with fire, since you loose the safety margin, and drag spikes increase as spool diameter decreases.
We need a reel dyno. I wonder if major manufacturers have such a thing? To get empirical numbers for these questions one would need something more complex than a spring scale.
When tensioning cable we use two types of tension instruments. One is in-line and acts just like a spring scale but with a dial and the other instrument measures deflection to calibrate tension. I haven't used these in decades so I don't recall the proper name but it has three points of contact on a tight cable. The point in the middle applies pressure and measures the deflection to give an accurate tension.
Mike
makes sense.. It's good to know these things because it helps to understand the outcomes of a completed reel when taking such actions to achieve the desired results.
In my mind 25 lbs at strike is 25 lbs no matter which reel it is on. Remember at a kid, which weigh's more a pound of lead or a pound of feathers?
The size difference in the reels in your example 30/50/80 has more to do with the amount of line you can get onto the reel and the reels design for heavier line. With that said it means the 50 will be bigger in overall size than the 30, maybe different gearing, longer handle and such for more cranking power for the heavier line. Same with the 80 being larger then the 50.
As far as the drag increase as the spool gets smaller that is correct. But, on a 30 sized reel you most likely will fish a lighter test than on the 50 and again on the 80. The 25 lbs at strike most likely ramp up the same on all reels as the spool diameter decreases due to the use of heavier line on the larger reels and with the spools arbor also being thicker on the bigger reels.
For the second question on the ramp up with changing the bellevile washers really is not a factor in a star drag reel. You set the amount of drag you want on the reel and fish it. Now on a lever drag this is where you can loose freespool with playing around with the config. Also the ramp up of moving the lever up to strike may be to aggressive making lines break or of needed to add more drag than the strike setting and you push past the strike setting there can and most likely get a big jump in in the drag pressure, Again this could cause the line to break
How has the reel manufacturer defined the drag? - Fully spooled or empty (they rarely say - 10lb fully spooled can be 20lb empty). Measure what you've got how you want, as long as you check your drag against the line/rod, your using, does it make a difference?
Sometimes things just get overthought.
I havent been fishing everywhere, but I have never seen anyone set the drag on a reel during a fishing trip by using a scale or any other device other than by hand and this is how I do it also.
When I set my drag for salmon trolling I set it real low by hand at an estimated 2-4lbs pressure, the same reel for Albacore will set at or around an estimated 10lbs. For Blue Fin 15lbs. How do I know what they are set at, precisely I do not know but I know my gear and what feels right to me.
I check various settings of my star or preset knob at home with a scale but who uses a scale on the water? Show of hands?
On our large trolling reels for Marlin and Tuna the drags are always set using a spring scale right before every trip.
We all set our drags by hand on the water but as our equipment improves we will be finding (or the fish will anyways) the new weak links in our rigs. I for one would be very interested to know that if I set my drag at 14 lbs. on my new Cortez plated 501; what the actual drag will be with 60% of the line played out...just out of curiosity. Then, armed with these numbers we might make the decision not to exceed 10 lbs. because we will be risking breaking something as the spool empties and drag numbers ramp up. I'm one of those guys who fishes with a heavy drag so I can boat the fish and get back into the bite. Optimum drag numbers would be very useful and would at least be a good starting point to shoot for and then adjust under real life conditions.
I SCUBA dive and I'm old-school. I've always trusted the good old tables and shunned computers. I had a buddy tell me that when you travel to destinations or your opportunities are far and few between that a dive computer will dramatically extend your bottom times...guess who uses a computer now? I still back-up my dive plan with a table profile incase the computer fails. I've gone through my log books and can see that the computer keeps us down longer.
I know I got off track there but it would be good to know real numbers at each end of the spool. I might just start logging this data when I re-spool my reels.
Mike
Quote from: Tiddlerbasher on February 12, 2016, 09:35:51 PM
How has the reel manufacturer defined the drag? - Fully spooled or empty (they rarely say - 10lb fully spooled can be 20lb empty). Measure what you've got how you want, as long as you check your drag against the line/rod, your using, does it make a difference?
From the manufactures I have talked to the max drag and inches per crank are always measured on a full spool.
I have found when measuring a reels drag by hand in most cases I will be off by a great deal when I put a scale to my measurements. Well with lighter lines not so much.
A strait pull off the reel will in most cases will be different than when the drag is measured with the line going through the rods guides.
Don't take my word for it, set your drags by hand going off the reel and then measure then with a scale with the line going through the rods guides when the rod is loaded up. I bet you will find when you get over 30 lb test your drag will be off more than you thought.
I agree that 25lbs is 25lbs. However, I also think that 25lbs on a larger reel would be a lot smoother.
I've noticed that the closer you are to approaching your max drag, the jerkier the drag will become. You are also putting more wear on the reel and increasing the potential for failure. With a larger reel, there is always more drag there if you need it. With a smaller reel, you can scale down the line to get a ton of line but you lose cranking power. I think that it makes more sense to go smaller if you are going to be fishing standup because of the weight factor. You can compensate with high quality braid. If you are fishing on a boat with a chair or swivel rod holders might as well go larger. I try to scale my tackle for the biggest fish that I am likely to ever encounter.
As far as the drag increasing as the spool diameter decreases, I would think that it would be proportional to the size of the spool relative to the diameter of the line being used. As you approach max drag, the smoothness of the drag would decrease.
do you mean 25 pounds or 25% of line weight?
I agree with SoCalAngler. I've never seen anybody that could accurately set a drag by hand. A scale is the only way to go, especially with fast running fish. I will say that I've never seen more than a pound or so difference between straight off the reel and through the guides. I believe that most that set by hand, set the drag light.
You have to give me + or - 3 lbs but I think I can set any drag anywhere 1-25 lbs by hand and I got a 30 year old bottle of scotch I will wager!
Quote from: David Hall on February 13, 2016, 07:42:06 AM
You have to give me + or - 3 lbs but I think I can set any drag anywhere 1-25 lbs by hand and I got a 30 year old bottle of scotch I will wager!
I'm with you pal, yes it can very much be done by feel, 3lbs either way is a good number.
Not everyone is the same though, as you, I know I could get close to it.
Sal
Simple way is to check your pulled estimate from time to time to make sure you are rite, that way you would be sure of the feel. I have in the past did the same when adjusting my drag, but I know if I measure 25# of drag on a scale it is damned hard to pull by hand without cutting yourself.
Joe
In testing line I found some things that pertain to this. My testing was hollow Spectra in as real a setting as I could produce.
On a small lever drag reel (wet drag) loaded with 40 lb. hollow. A piece of 20 lb. hollow was spliced on the end, and a loop was made in the end of the 20, and a hook was put on the loop. I happen to live near a chain link fence that is over way over 300 yds. long. So the drag was set at 40% of 20 = 8 lbs, and the hook was attached to the fence, and away I went at a fairly fast pace. Pulling the length of the fence and more about 400 yds.
provided a surprise in the fact the 20 lb. did not break. And most of the line was off the reel.
So now my drags are set then pushing past strike and tested until the spot where 50% of the stated line strength is found. At that spot a make is placed on the reel. Many guys that fish big fish do not exceed the 50%.
Another thing that occurs with reels of different sizes is the fact that more drag surface area equating to more friction especially as the spool starts to move. As many here on this site were instrumental in greasing drags to reduce start up resistance, and the advancement in reel technology, has produced reels that will effectively fish heavier drag settings. So is 25 lbs. the same on different reels, and dose it effect your fishing, MAYBE..... but is it enough to matter, probably not. If reels now can have a fish empty most of line without breakage, and you can use 50% of the stated line strength in limited situations I would not worry about it.
Quote from: PacRat on February 13, 2016, 01:14:40 AM
I for one would be very interested to know that if I set my drag at 14 lbs. on my new Cortez plated 501; what the actual drag will be with 60% of the line played out...just out of curiosity.
Mike, I think the difference in drag should be roughly proportional to the change in effective spool radius. Say when the spool is full, the distance from the spindle to the top of the line is one inch, and the drag is set at 10 lbs. Look at that one inch radius as a lever one inch long applied to rotating the spool. If you pull off enough line so that the top is now 3/4 inch from the spindle, the difference in drag should be about 10 * 1/4 = 2.5 lbs, giving an effective drag of 12.5 lbs. Actual results can differ from predictions because the reel is a physical thing with quirks, not a mathematical model, but Rube Goldberg experiments in my basement support the basic idea.
Mike
Quote from: mike1010 on February 13, 2016, 03:43:35 PM
Quote from: PacRat on February 13, 2016, 01:14:40 AM
I for one would be very interested to know that if I set my drag at 14 lbs. on my new Cortez plated 501; what the actual drag will be with 60% of the line played out...just out of curiosity.
Mike, I think the difference in drag should be roughly proportional to the change in effective spool radius. Say when the spool is full, the distance from the spindle to the top of the line is one inch, and the drag is set at 10 lbs. Look at that one inch radius as a lever one inch long applied to rotating the spool. If you pull off enough line so that the top is now 3/4 inch from the spindle, the difference in drag should be about 10 * 1/4 = 2.5 lbs, giving an effective drag of 12.5 lbs. Actual results can differ from predictions because the reel is a physical thing with quirks, not a mathematical model, but Rube Goldberg experiments in my basement support the basic idea.
Mike
You are correct Mike, but now you've opened up a can of worms ;D ;D
In regards to being able to pull 25lbs by hands:
Quote from: Normslanding on February 13, 2016, 03:18:17 PM
So is 25 lbs. the same on different reels, and dose it effect your fishing, MAYBE..... but is it enough to matter, probably not. If reels now can have a fish empty most of line without breakage, and you can use 50% of the stated line strength in limited situations I would not worry about it.
I believe it's the same numbers on different reels, but if you take smoothness into account, that's another story.
I just tested myself again with pulling 25lbs by hands, not easy, but doable.
I attached the scale to a post and held the reel in my hands, gradually adjusted the star by pulling it up to 25lbs. I have gone way higher doing it this way, but that's for something else.
I repeated the same by mounting the reel on my rod without touching the star and gave it a nice bend.
I checked the scale and it was exactly the same 25lbs.
I then pulled the line using my hand, again, keeping the star at the same setting. It took a little force but I was able to pull the line with no issues.
I used a 9/0 with upgraded drags, that reel is as smooth as butter at 25lbs, I'm sure a stock 9/0 would have given me a harder time.
This is one of the reason we increase drags on these.
By the way, I wouldn't attempt pulling braid at 25lbs.
Sal
Sal its okay to use a stick! wrap the line around it and set the drag, that same 25 wont be so bad, its still adjusted by hand just not a bloody one!
I know we are getting more and more technical, but to be honest, before I started hanging around here, I fished for a couple decades and never even considered that the drag had a "weight." If you have two 4/0s and one is spooled with 30 and one is spooled with 40 the 30 needs less drag. What is that less drag? It's what it is. I guess if you are just starting out and am looking to be as able as an individual that has been fishing for a while you want to know. But in all honesty, let a fish break off because your drag is to tight, then let one run on you because it is to loose, then switch lines and realize that everything is different. After considerable time and effort, you'll figure it out.
Ron
thanks for all the input guys. I appreciate this. Hopefully this can be used for future reference. I changed the thread title to be easier to search and get access to.
I agree with day one. Living in the East Cape of BCS Mexico the only fishing I do is off shore. All my reels are lever drags with a few exceptions. When I set the drag on the lever drag reels I mount the reel on the rod, run the line through the guides and use a good (accurate) spring scale with a tattle tale. Then the line is anchored at floor level and I load the rod until the drag slip's. The drag is noted, not changing a thing I then
point the rod directly at the anchor and back up until the drag slip's. The number is always the same.
However the strain on me is almost nothing as compared to the loaded rod way. The difference is so dramatic
that I had a friend of mine load up a rod with the reel set at 15# and pull until the drag slipped. We checked the scale and it was 15#. I then had him point the rod at the anchor point and back up. I asked him what he thought the drag was. He said just about nothing, maybe 5#. Took a look at the tattle tale 15#. He could not believe it.
He now fights big fish the way I do. When the fish is running, point the rod at the fish and relax. Once the drag is slipping you can not put any more pressure on the fish. But you can sure put more on your self.
Try it sometime. Jaime
Quote from: Jaime on February 22, 2016, 04:11:51 PM
Once the drag is slipping you can not put any more pressure on the fish. But you can sure put more on your self.
Try it sometime. Jaime
Jaime, you're going to break more lines that way. The rod performs an important function in cushioning the tension on the line so as to minimize sudden changes in tension; changes that can result in line breakage! If you're going to do this, better make sure you drag is as smooth as silk!
Sid
The day I saw my first Avet was the day my transition (mostly) to lever drag reels started. The change to wet drags was the other altering factor in my fishing over the last 12 or so years. These two factors have altered how drags are set, and how I fish today. The drags are set with a scale, and tested pulling line directly off the reel without a bend in the rod. The drag pressure used is a minimum of 30%, and usually higher. The last time a fish broke my string was on a dry drag Avet LX long ago. Pointing the rod at a fish while line is going off the reel is the norm, especially on fish that appear to be over 20 lbs. On big fish like YFT, Marlin, etc. it is automatic for me. When a fish is circling the rod is used more bent. To date fish have not been lost to broken line, pulled or broken hooks. A wise fisherman friend said " pour the coals to them early, if you loose one early it's better than getting chewed off after a hour and a half ". Years ago I would have agreed with using the rod to cushion the impact with little stretch in Spectra. Back in the 50's mono, and a parabolic rod made up for mistakes a young buy (me) would make. Today the modern reels, and rods have change the game.
As David mentioned, I have NEVER seen anyone on a boat set their drags with a scale(I am 75 yrs old). In fact I have seen very few fishermen on any kind of party boat with their own scale. In all fairness the longest fishing trip I have been in on is 1 1/2 day trip--so no multi-day trips. I have seen very few fish lost by having too little drag, because you can usually increase the drag enough to correct the situation. Too much drag for a given situation can result in pulled hooks and broken lines--just my opinion. I have seen lots of deckhands adjust or re-adjust drags, but Never with a scale--just by pulling off line. None of this makes my opinion more correct. But I believe if I ever wanted to fish with 15#'s drag--after I set the drag with the scales 2 or 3 times and then checked how hard it was to pull 15#'s of drag by hand or cheating with a dowel--that I could set the drag by hand within 12 to 18 lbs. Just my opinion.. But again, on any fishing boat, I have never seen a scale used to do anything but weigh the fish. ;D
TomT
Quote from: TomT on February 24, 2016, 04:48:45 AM
As David mentioned, I have NEVER seen anyone on a boat set their drags with a scale(I am 75 yrs old). In fact I have seen very few fishermen on any kind of party boat with their own scale. In all fairness the longest fishing trip I have been in on is 1 1/2 day trip--so no multi-day trips. I have seen very few fish lost by having too little drag, because you can usually increase the drag enough to correct the situation. Too much drag for a given situation can result in pulled hooks and broken lines--just my opinion. I have seen lots of deckhands adjust or re-adjust drags, but Never with a scale--just by pulling off line. None of this makes my opinion more correct. But I believe if I ever wanted to fish with 15#'s drag--after I set the drag with the scales 2 or 3 times and then checked how hard it was to pull 15#'s of drag by hand or cheating with a dowel--that I could set the drag by hand within 12 to 18 lbs. Just my opinion.. But again, on any fishing boat, I have never seen a scale used to do anything but weigh the fish. ;D
TomT
You need to go on a Gulf of Mexico tuna trip with regulars. Lots of scales used to set the drags on the trip out. Pretty common. I carry two scales when ever I fish. A lot of people set the drags with scales before the trip also. If a deckhand messes with my drag while I have a fish on, he stands a good chance of pulling back a nub instead of a finger.