Given the low RPM of reels (even spool bearings during a massive cast get nowhere near what an industrial engineer would consider a high-speed application) is there any point at all splashing out on ABEC 5 or 7 bearings when ABEC 1 is quite sufficient?
Providing materials are adequately durable and corrosion resistant, why pay for unnecessarily high precision?
Thoughts?
Spool bearings required fairly fast ,never try to figure out how many RPM it should be just feel that .a little bearings have to turn many round to get 50 feet in few second
Here is a link to what Alan wrote about bearings.
https://alantani.com/index.php/topic,13.0.html
It's a good read. Bill
So those speed ratings are based on how fast it can go before the heat from the friction caused by imperfect surfaces is enough to make the bearing fail. That number is almost irrelevant when the goal is to refine the performance of a piece of machinery that you hopefully enjoy using.
Do your own freespool test with a set of high end ceramic spool bearings vs the cheapest least precise bearings you can find. There will be a difference. It's up to you whether that difference is worth spending money on.
Quote from: quang tran on October 26, 2024, 11:18:37 PMSpool bearings required fairly fast ,never try to figure out how many RPM it should be just feel that .a little bearings have to turn many round to get 50 feet in few second
But still nowhere near the RPM of, say, a router (19000)
Quote from: JasonGotaProblem on October 27, 2024, 01:40:13 AMSo those speed ratings are based on how fast it can go before the heat from the friction caused by imperfect surfaces is enough to make the bearing fail. That number is almost irrelevant when the goal is to refine the performance of a piece of machinery that you hopefully enjoy using.
Do your own freespool test with a set of high end ceramic spool bearings vs the cheapest least precise bearings you can find. There will be a difference. It's up to you whether that difference is worth spending money on.
But.....The ABEC rating only relates to the bearing dimensions and does not specify many critical factors: load capabilities, ball precision, materials, material hardness, corrosion resistance, degree of ball/raceway polishing.
Even looking at the maximum permissible inner race deviation from centre, for a 20mm inner diameter bearing, difference for ABEC 1-5 is only 6μm*. Sorry but fishing reels are not manufactured to those sort of tolerances.
*For US members 6μm = 0.0002362205''
I can accept the concept of best possible for a spool bearing on a casting reel but a bearing we are going to pack with NLGI2 grease - no way!
Quote from: cathauler65 on October 27, 2024, 08:18:24 AMI can accept the concept of best possible for a spool bearing on a casting reel but a bearing we are going to pack with NLGI2 grease - no way!
Agreed.
Abec ratings are far from the most important spec. But it's an easy one to advertise and easy for folks to search for.
If I could source them in the correct sizes, I think I'd be very happy to replace many of my reels' bearings with bronze bushings - similar to those on my old ABU7000.
Anyone know any UK/EU suppliers of small bronze bushings?
Quote from: cathauler65 on October 27, 2024, 12:43:52 PMIf I could source them in the correct sizes, I think I'd be very happy to replace many of my reels' bearings with bronze bushings - similar to those on my old ABU7000.
Anyone know any UK/EU suppliers of small bronze bushings?
Funny I've been working on the same. I have different goals for different reels. I have a recent thread going on that topic. I just search on eBay for the size and the words "oilite" or "bushing". One of the packs, ironically actually came from England. So yeah there's gotta be more over there. Also some are currently on their way from China. Probably not that different shipping from China to USA than it is to the UK.
In a nutshel, you (OP) are correct. ABEC grade does not directly correspond to bearing quality, and the higher grades are only required for extended operation at extremely high RPMs, which not only requires better tolerances on the bearing, but also requires that the entire assembly is extremely well aligned and well balanced, which is not what you are going to find on a fishing reel.
We were talking about this on the weekly zoom call yesterday: if you move about three inches of line per spool revolution on your ABU, that means four revolutions per foot, or twelve revolutions per yard. 100 yards ( maybe 80 yards casting distance) is only 120 1200 revolutions.
IMHO, most of the performance changes folk find when swapping bearings has to do with not having an apples to apples comparison in terms of wear, cleanliness, and lubrication.
-j
Dave my good sir you missed a zero but you made your point
Quote from: jurelometer on October 27, 2024, 05:13:05 PMIn a nutshel, you (OP) are correct. ABEC grade does not directly correspond to bearing quality, and the higher grades are only required for extended operation at extremely high RPMs, which not only requires better tolerances on the bearing, but also requires that the entire assembly is extremely well aligned and well balanced, which is not what you are going to find on a fishing reel.
We were talking about this on the weekly zoom call yesterday: if you move about three inches of line per spool revolution on your ABU, that means four revolutions per foot, or twelve revolutions per yard. 100 yards ( maybe 80 yards casting distance) is only 120 revolutions.
IMHO, most of the performance changes folk find when swapping bearings has to do with not having an apples to apples comparison in terms of wear, cleanliness, and lubrication.
-j
Yes only 120 revolutions in about 2 sec (time the line start come out till bait drop in water ) It required average speed 3600 RPM and to get that average speed 3600 rpm the fastest spool speed required is much more around 7200 rpm .Poor quality bearings greatly reduce casting distance and worn out fairly quick
Quote from: JasonGotaProblem on October 27, 2024, 05:35:27 PMDave my good sir you missed a zero but you made your point
Aargh. I always do that. Thanks. I will fix my post.
Quote from: quang tran on October 27, 2024, 05:50:02 PMQuote from: jurelometer on October 27, 2024, 05:13:05 PMIn a nutshel, you (OP) are correct. ABEC grade does not directly correspond to bearing quality, and the higher grades are only required for extended operation at extremely high RPMs, which not only requires better tolerances on the bearing, but also requires that the entire assembly is extremely well aligned and well balanced, which is not what you are going to find on a fishing reel.
We were talking about this on the weekly zoom call yesterday: if you move about three inches of line per spool revolution on your ABU, that means four revolutions per foot, or twelve revolutions per yard. 100 yards ( maybe 80 yards casting distance) is only 120 revolutions.
IMHO, most of the performance changes folk find when swapping bearings has to do with not having an apples to apples comparison in terms of wear, cleanliness, and lubrication.
-j
Yes only 120 revolutions in about 2 sec (time the line start come out till bait drop in water ) It required average speed 3600 RPM and to get that average speed 3600 rpm the fastest spool speed required is much more around 7200 rpm .Poor quality bearings greatly reduce casting distance and worn out fairly quick
Not that it matters but (if I didn't screw up my math again [edit- I screwed up math again :-[ corrected now in this post - my thanks to Quang] ), I don't think you get an average of 3600 RPMs. 1200 revolutions in 2 seconds is an average of
600 360000 RPMs. And I would guess at least five seconds for an eighty yard cast, so no more than 14400 RPMs.
And ABEC ratings are not directly related to quality. Those high end bearings are intended for extended operation (hours and hours) at 50,000 or more RPMs.
In my opinion, if the bearings are at least relatively decent quality, more performance opportunity is to be found in thorough cleaning, proper lubrication and preventing corrosion.
-j
like I said I never try to figure out the rpm .Just trust my felling that it turn fairly fast
120 rev in 2 sec
60 rev in 1 sec
60x 60 in 60 sec
3600 rpm
Spoon speed don't get up speed right away ,it take time and then it will have to slow down because out of pulling force or you thump spool to slow it down when bait almost hit target so max speed have to be more than double 7200 rpm
and if you figure out 1200 rev in 5 sec
1200 rev in 5 sec
1200x60/5 it will be 14400 rpm average .Lots of damage
Thanks for confirming my thoughts on this, jurelometer
Quote from: JasonGotaProblem on October 27, 2024, 01:19:29 PMQuote from: cathauler65 on October 27, 2024, 12:43:52 PMIf I could source them in the correct sizes, I think I'd be very happy to replace many of my reels' bearings with bronze bushings - similar to those on my old ABU7000.
Anyone know any UK/EU suppliers of small bronze bushings?
Funny I've been working on the same. I have different goals for different reels. I have a recent thread going on that topic. I just search on eBay for the size and the words "oilite" or "bushing". One of the packs, ironically actually came from England. So yeah there's gotta be more over there. Also some are currently on their way from China. Probably not that different shipping from China to USA than it is to the UK.
I have been trawling around but haven't found anything to match existing bearings - yet!
If you buy a 10-pack of ABEC 5 or ABEC 7 from Boca Bearings, test them one at a time by flicking them on a mandrel (pencil point), record the spin time and do a half dozen replicate flicks for each one, you will find consistent, repeatable and WHOPPING BIG differences. It is on the order of 30 to 50%. The differences within a pack will be greater than the difference between the average of a pack of ABEC 5 and ABEC 7.
Back when I was obsessing about this bearing stuff I could not find a difference in casting distance from different grades of bearings either. High end full-ceramic bearings were a very slight exception.
Thankfully, I got over it and finally abandoned ball bearings all together because of their high maintenance requirements compared to bushings.
Quote from: quang tran on October 27, 2024, 07:09:34 PMlike I said I never try to figure out the rpm .Just trust my felling that it turn fairly fast
120 rev in 2 sec
60 rev in 1 sec
60x 60 in 60 sec
3600 rpm
Spoon speed don't get up speed right away ,it take time and then it will have to slow down because out of pulling force or you thump spool to slow it down when bait almost hit target so max speed have to be more than double 7200 rpm
and if you figure out 1200 rev in 5 sec
1200 rev in 5 sec
1200x60/5 it will be 14400 rpm average .Lots of damage
Aargh. I been rushing my posts while cooking today and making too many mistakes. 14400 is correct. Thanks! I will correct again.
But 14400 RPMs average for 5 seconds is not considered a high speed load, and the reel is still not well aligned enough to take advantage of ABEC 5 bearings anyways. So the point is still the same.
The spool actually gets up to speed extremely quickly. Once you release the payload, it cannot accelerate any more. It does not generate thrust. The payload is continually decreasing in velocity throughout the flight. And cast control (your thumb or a mechanism) is simply an attempt to compensate for inertia from the mass of the spool by applying resistance to the spool so that the line leaves the spool with the same decreasing velocity as the payload. Less resistance from the bearings is only helping for the small part of the cast where we are not applying supplemental resistance for cast control, and helps the most when the payload is very light so that any unwanted bearing resistance makes a bigger difference.
-j
Actually bushing will take more heavy load than bearings ,some heavy machine flywheel continue using brass bushing just required more maintenance and cost more to replace also create more heat ,need more power to operate and required wider gap
In spool bearings load is not a factor when casting ,speed and friction is more important and I'm sure you can feel it .Reel maker put bearings in for a good reason
Now bearings price getting so cheap and I'm not sure you can get bushings at cheaper price .If you use double side sealed ball bearings I'm sure they will last and when it fell just replace it
Reel makers put many bearings in, I believe, simply as a marketing tool ie 1 more is always better.
Let's call it the Spinal Tap principle.
A reel may feel great out of the box but once exposed bearings start to lose smoothness, a bushing will in most cases 'feel' and function better.
If you fell that so do what you feel ,trust your feeling .Some people super tune there reels by clean all grease out and fill with tooth paste ,hook up to a drill and feel very smooth .I'm working in a factory that require to change many bearings every day so I may feel different .Old Abu Garcia reel spool friction is so little compare with gearing for line guide that every cast line guide have to move along so normally you don't feel any different .Most people don't feel spool can turn that fast but I feel different
Here is the link to Jason's thread where we kick around the tradeoffs to switching to plain bearings ( what you folk are calling bushings).
https://alantani.com/index.php/topic,39008.45.html (https://alantani.com/index.php/topic,39008.45.html)
One advantage that ball bearings have is tolerating a bit of misalignment better than plain bearings, so switching to plain bearings might work out better in some reels than others...
-J
I recently got into the BFS arena & splurged on Roro SIC bearings. I primarily fish fresh water & can't elaborate on the specs at this juncture. I can tell you this, if you don't mind spending $27 on a upgrade for a $60 reel, it makes fishing with this particular reel, great!...I can cast a 1/16 crappie jig 100' with just a sidearm flick of the wrist, that my friends is just fun,not tiresome. Like tinkering with an old hot rod-money pit, word salad, I know...It's part of our hobby :fish I read boca bearings supposedly come prelubed, some come with no grease inconsistently . The Roros come dry but I add a few drops of Lucas reel oil, makes them slick.