Penn 700: Smoothing out the drag

[Dermabot]

I have a Penn 700 spinning reel that I purchased used many years ago. The spool it came with is the version that utilizes round drag washers (no octagonal washers). See http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=11333.msg109537#msg109537 if you don't understand what I'm talking about. The stock drag on this reel was pretty herky-jerky, and I wanted to smooth it out.

Figuring the stock drag washers were just not that smooth, I made the modifications spoken of at the above link (multi-washer carbontex drag stack). Surprise, things got much worse, not better! I investigated, and discovered the following:
* The new inner-keyed metal drag washers were cutting into one side of the spool. (Widening the spool at the point of washer contact reduced the stickiness, but it was still intolerable, worse than before)
* I was missing the Teflon washer that goes under the spool
* The spool was not centered on the shaft, and / or was not concentric (spool visibly wobbles while rotating)
* The brass core of the spool showed uneven wear on the walls
* The portion of the cross-wind shaft around which the spool revolves had some minor scoring

Time to get serious. I:
* Replaced the cross-wind shaft with a brand-new one
* Installed a new under-spool Teflon washer
* Purchased a brand-new, unused spool matching the original
* Purchased another brand-new, unused spool, this one a later version having some octagonal metal drag washers

I tested the new round-core spool, with the new cross-wind shaft and Teflon washer. There was a definite improvement over previous parts, but the drag still was not smooth.
I installed the new drag stack into the round-core spool. There was a minor improvement to smoothness, and the drag was definitely stronger. But I still wasn't satisfied.
I replaced the fiber drag washers in the new octagonal-core spool with carbontex, and mounted it to the reel. There was a VAST improvement.


Now for the questions:

Is there anything else I can try to smooth out the round-core spool's drag?

Is the drag inconsistency in the round-core spool a result of manufacturing tolerances or issues?

If so, is this a problem common to a lot of old-manufacture reels?

Thanks.

[MarkT]

Did you grease the washers with some of Cal's grease?

[Alto Mare]

looks like you didn't do as I showed it above, I have no issues with the eared washers, my reel is nice and smooth.
A Delrin washer for under the spool doesn't get squished as the Teflon washer does, when under stress.

Sal

[Dermabot]

Washers are greased with Cal's.

I haven't yet been able to locate a Delrin washer of appropriate size as referenced in MarkT's post. I didn't even know what thickness I needed until I actually had an original Teflon washer in hand yesterday. The results with the octo-core spool justify continued effort on this reel, so I plan to keep searching. I'm just not sure that the Teflon washer is entirely to blame for the round-core spool's performance, given that the octo-core spool is so much smoother.

I have a couple other reels (Penn 716 and Garcia Mitchell 302N) I was planning to refurbish for active fishing use, both exhibiting the same sort of old-time herky-jerky drag. If I can't resolve the round-core spool issue, I may decide the others aren't financially worth the risk.

[foakes]

Hi Dermabot --

Occasionally, I will run into an issue like this with jerky drags -- particularly on the Penn Spinfishers, Mitchell 302s, DAM Quicks, Daiwas.

Even with Delrin, sometimes it still jerks a little.  Lot has to do with the smoothness of the parts as they interact.

In these cases -- the simplest sure fix is just to install a CF drag washer greased with Cal's on both sides as the under spool washer.

You may need to adjust the size diameter to fit -- experiment a little -- but it will smooth everything out very quickly.

You can even stack (2) greased CFs on top of each other, since they are thin -- as long as the line lay is even on the spool.

Sounds like you have done everything else about right.

Best,

Fred

[Alto Mare]

Washers are greased with Cal's.

I haven't yet been able to locate a Delrin washer of appropriate size as referenced in MarkT's post. I didn't even know what thickness I needed until I actually had an original Teflon washer in hand yesterday. The results with the octo-core spool justify continued effort on this reel, so I plan to keep searching. I'm just not sure that the Teflon washer is entirely to blame for the round-core spool's performance, given that the octo-core spool is so much smoother.

I have a couple other reels (Penn 716 and Garcia Mitchell 302N) I was planning to refurbish for active fishing use, both exhibiting the same sort of old-time herky-jerky drag. If I can't resolve the round-core spool issue, I may decide the others aren't financially worth the risk.

No, I never said that the teflon washer was the blame for your jerky drags, I said a delrin washer doesn't squish as the teflon washer would. A carbon washer, teflon or delrin washer will all work, on the long run, a delrin washer is best...just my opinion.
An octagon cored spool would always be best, compared to the older round cored spool that only accepts one drag washer.
What I showed above was to convert a spool that would only accept one washer, to 5 washers.
I thought it was an excellent upgrade for that particular spool.
You're claiming that the eared washers are getting caught on the new slots, this might be a blame of your cutouts, I don't have the spool on hands, you probably didn't go as smooth, or the cutouts are not lining up.
An eared washer functionality is to help additional drag washers apply pressure and release it... not to rotate.
Again, I have one of these spools here and it is working nicely, but I don't see why it wouldn't.
Eared washers have been working on conventional reels for many years, same concept here.
If you don't mind, could you post a pic of your customized spool and washers? did you get the metal keyed and eared washers from Bryan?

[Dermabot]

The eared washers weren't "getting caught on the new slots".
The round washers, keyed to the cross-wind shaft, were cutting circumferential grooves into one side of the original round-core spool during drag tests. The grooves did not overlap the new slots.
I don't have this problem with the new round-core spool.

The washer kit was the "Ultimate Upgrade - Penn 5-60 Main Gear Drag Kit" from Bryan's Reel Service.

I'll post pictures when I get a few moments.

[Alto Mare]

I reread what you stated above, I thought you meant getting caught in the groves. Bryan's keyed washers are .10mm larger on the OD, compared to the original washer on this reel, it still has plenty of room for them to work.
From the explanation, I would think the spool shaft or the brass bushing in the spool, or both need replacement. You've replaced the spool shaft, so it has to be the spool bushing as well, I'n not sure you could replace that one.
While cranking down on the drag knob, you will notice that the spool will rock about 1/16", this is normal for all 700 series. Still, the spool should remain centered.
How many washers did your spool with the round core come with? Also, how many washers did you place in the octagonal cored spool?


Another part that would help the 700 is a newer drag knob:
https://www.mysticparts.com/PennParts/Parts/52N-750N.aspx

These vintage reels will never be as smooth as the newer reels, BUT, will never let you down.
We are very limited on these, as for upgrades.
You might want to stop over by SOL, there are a few guys that have machined the housing to accept a roller bearing. You ask me, I'll say it's not worth it, I enjoy these reels just as they are.
I'm glad Penn decided to make the 704&706Z as the original, those reels are tanks and so are these we're discussing here.
Good luck on your search making this reel smoother, as Fred mentioned above, other components help give the feel that the drags are not as smooth. Let us know how you make out.
Sal

"Edited as per Moderators to correct Scott's Bait & Tackle over to their new store name Mystic Reel Parts / www.mysticparts.com"

[Dermabot]

I did replace the original round-core spool with a new round-core spool, at the same time I replaced the cross-wind shaft. The new combination has a better drag, even without the drag washer upgrades, than the original round-core spool. I'm pretty sure the original spool was totally out-of-whack.

The original and new round-core spools both had the following sequence in the drag stack:
Probably non-removable, press-fitted steel washer
Very thick fiber washer
Metal washer, keyed to the cross-wind shaft

The new octa-core spool currently has the following sequence:
  Brass octagonal washer
  Round teflon washer
  Round steel washer, keyed to the cross-wind shaft
  Round carbontex washer
  Brass octagonal washer
  Round carbontex washer
  Round steel washer, keyed to the cross-wind shaft
I intend to replace the Teflon washer with a carbontex washer. I might also try cramming in more washers, especially if I can't smooth out the round-core spool.

I personally wish roller bearings had never become popular. Wouldn't be so bad if they were fully sealed against water intrusion in non-exotic reels. I'll look into this mod for the 700 on the basis of possibly extending the life of the gears since they're probably getting hard to find, but I'm reluctant.

[Alto Mare]

I did replace the original round-core spool with a new round-core spool, at the same time I replaced the cross-wind shaft. The new combination has a better drag, even without the drag washer upgrades, than the original round-core spool. I'm pretty sure the original spool was totally out-of-whack.

The original and new round-core spools both had the following sequence in the drag stack:
Probably non-removable, press-fitted steel washer
Very thick fiber washer
Metal washer, keyed to the cross-wind shaft

The new octa-core spool currently has the following sequence:
  Brass octagonal washer
  Round teflon washer
  Round steel washer, keyed to the cross-wind shaft
  Round carbontex washer
  Brass octagonal washer
  Round carbontex washer
  Round steel washer, keyed to the cross-wind shaft
I intend to replace the Teflon washer with a carbontex washer. I might also try cramming in more washers, especially if I can't smooth out the round-core spool.

I personally wish roller bearings had never become popular. Wouldn't be so bad if they were fully sealed against water intrusion in non-exotic reels. I'll look into this mod for the 700 on the basis of possibly extending the life of the gears since they're probably getting hard to find, but I'm reluctant.

Yes, it appears your first spool was shot.
The pressed in washer on the round cored spool is glued in, you could knock it out if you needed to, but it gives a nice platform.
Replacing the Teflon washer in the octagonal-cored spool is a good thing, adding additional washers will definitely give you smoother drags.
Here is where you could get the additional washers, I'm not sure Bryan has these available at the moment:
http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=14596.msg150041#msg150041
There is good and bad in everything, some rather have a reel as simple as this one for surf fishing.
I'm one of them.
If you're staying with vintage reels, have you considered the SS series? those are a step up from these, as for smoothness but not necessarily tougher.
Sal
Sal

[Dermabot]

I'm currently in the process of refurbishing and upgrading a Penn 750SS. This promises to be a nice reel when I'm finished. I like the idea of double dogs acting on the pinion, as well as SS / brass gears.
On the light end of the spectrum, I'm just about finished refurbishing a Penn 420SS and a Penn 430SS. Next in line for attention is the Penn 716.

Current plans call for using the 420 and 430 for float tubing in salt water (reels are frequently dunked, and so need to be easily overhauled), the 750 for boats, the 700 for surf, and the 716 for loaning out to family members in situations with strong risk of immersion.