Sand casted aluminium side plates. Possible? Bad idea?

[Mandelstam]

Sometimes you get an idea in your mind that you can't get rid of. I have one right now. So before thinking about it too much I want to throw it out there and just test the idea with you guys. I have a few doubts already myself. But I just can't let it go.

I really love the plastic side plates of the old Senators, but they tend to get a bit worn and beat up over time. So I thought, why not make a copy of an old pair in aluminium? The side plates are casted to start with so there is nothing really in the design that would prevent it (overhangs, angles, etc). I'm theoretically aware of the process of sand casting and it's not a really complicated procedure even though it's a craft that requires experience and knowledge. And I'm not thinking about doing it myself, I'm thinking of finding someone that could do it on his/hers coffee break so to speak... I have a few connections I can try.

But there is a couple of places of concern and that is what to do with the threaded parts of the side plates. Stock plates have threaded metal inserts bonded to the plastic. I don't think threading aluminium is a good idea so that leaves the same method as with the stock plates. I've read that you can bond dissimilar metals with different kinds of agents but I'm still worried that you'll get a galvanic cell between the two with corrosion in the wake.

So maybe this is a bad idea but I can't seem to get rid of the image of a pair of side plates with a nice sailfish and Penn logo in polished sandcasted aluminium...

I'm not fully aware of american copyright laws, but as long as it's not put on the market maybe it's fine. I'm just thinking of doing one pair for my own reel. And as the mold is a one off I don't think there will be a cost benefit for doing a larger run anyway.

I think most people would think I'm crazy for even considering this but I thought that if there is anyone that understands me they can be found here...


Karl

[Keta]

Sometimes you get an idea in your mind that you can't get rid of. I have one right now. So before thinking about it too much I want to throw it out there and just test the idea with you guys. I have a few doubts already myself. But I just can't let it go.

I really love the plastic side plates of the old Senators, but they tend to get a bit worn and beat up over time. So I thought, why not make a copy of an old pair in aluminium? The side plates are casted to start with so there is nothing really in the design that would prevent it (overhangs, angles, etc). I'm theoretically aware of the process of sand casting and it's not a really complicated procedure even though it's a craft that requires experience and knowledge. And I'm not thinking about doing it myself, I'm thinking of finding someone that could do it on his/hers coffee break so to speak... I have a few connections I can try.

But there is a couple of places of concern and that is what to do with the threaded parts of the side plates. Stock plates have threaded metal inserts bonded to the plastic. I don't think threading aluminium is a good idea so that leaves the same method as with the stock plates. I've read that you can bond dissimilar metals with different kinds of agents but I'm still worried that you'll get a galvanic cell between the two with corrosion in the wake.

So maybe this is a bad idea but I can't seem to get rid of the image of a pair of side plates with a nice sailfish and Penn logo in polished sandcasted aluminium...

I'm not fully aware of american copyright laws, but as long as it's not put on the market maybe it's fine. I'm just thinking of doing one pair for my own reel. And as the mold is a one off I don't think there will be a cost benefit for doing a larger run anyway.

I think most people would think I'm crazy for even considering this but I thought that if there is anyone that understands me they can be found here...


Karl

Sand castings are usually too rough for something like a side plate but lost wax casting (not that much harder than sand casting) should work. You could also try threaded inserts for the threaded parts.

[Mandelstam]

Yea, maybe you're right Lee, but I know I have seen some pretty detailed stuff on bronze plaques and statues that are sand casted. Maybe there is different kind of sand you can use with different grain size. But lost wax casting is a nice idea. I think there is plaster you can use for the mold that can withstand that kind of heat.

[Keta]

Yea, maybe you're right Lee, but I know I have seen some pretty detailed stuff on bronze plaques and statues that are sand casted. Maybe there is different kind of sand you can use with different grain size. But lost wax casting is a nice idea. I think there is plaster you can use for the mold that can withstand that kind of heat.

Casting sand is fine and can come out fairly smooth but lost wax is better.   Make a plaster cast of the side plate, make a wax casting, cover the casting with ceramic "slip", fire in kiln, then cast part in ceramic mold.

[OldSchool]

A lot of spinner bodies are cast so its all doable. The smoother the mold the smoother the cast. Aftermarket machined side plates have the threads cut straight into the alloy.

[Three se7ens]

Threading cast aluminum is fine, but you can use threaded inserts(helicoil, or better solid versions) fir more strength.

Most aluminum frames not on high end reels are cast.  It's strong enough for most applications, and is far stiffer than graphite.

[Makule]

While it is possible to cast aluminum for your purpose, it may still require some machining to get really precise sizes (if you need it for such things as screw holes or uprights).  Molten aluminum will shrink upon cooling and it's difficult to know exactly how much, and in what way, it will shrink. 

Cast metals also are known for being brittle in certain spots due to impurities and/or uneven mixing of the alloying metals.  This takes away from overall strength and yields "defective" weak spots.

I have been planning on doing a large spool (have already made a 4/0 size spool) using the cast and cut method (Penn casts their bronze spools and then machines them), but have not thought about doing side plates because it seemed the machining would be too much for the equipment that I have as well as my ability/patience.

Aluminum alloys are frequently threaded, but I agree that it may not be the ideal approach, especially if exposed to frequent take apart, or corrosion.  Threaded inserts made with metals with similar electrolysis values (or certain plastics) should minimize this problem (aluminum-plastic-threaded female metal) .

Possible, yes.  Bad idea, no.  Requires proper equipment and skill.

[Ron Jones]

Ruger casts aluminum piatol parts that require almost zero finishing. I don't think we could aproach their acuracy but it definatly can be done. It will probably be the most cost effective production method in the end.
Ron

[Mandelstam]

While it is possible to cast aluminum for your purpose, it may still require some machining to get really precise sizes (if you need it for such things as screw holes or uprights).  Molten aluminum will shrink upon cooling and it's difficult to know exactly how much, and in what way, it will shrink. 

Cast metals also are known for being brittle in certain spots due to impurities and/or uneven mixing of the alloying metals.  This takes away from overall strength and yields "defective" weak spots.

I have been planning on doing a large spool (have already made a 4/0 size spool) using the cast and cut method (Penn casts their bronze spools and then machines them), but have not thought about doing side plates because it seemed the machining would be too much for the equipment that I have as well as my ability/patience.

Aluminum alloys are frequently threaded, but I agree that it may not be the ideal approach, especially if exposed to frequent take apart, or corrosion.  Threaded inserts made with metals with similar electrolysis values (or certain plastics) should minimize this problem (aluminum-plastic-threaded female metal) .

Possible, yes.  Bad idea, no.  Requires proper equipment and skill.

Good post! Thanks for the input!

I understand that some machining will have to be done post casting to get the final measurements to the right specs. I was thinking that you could use the stock plate as a template for that, like holes etc. But if the shrinkage is too big I guess it isn't possible to make an exact copy from a stock plate. You'll have to make an original or pattern that compensates for the shrinkage...

If it were just the outer diameter you'd have to compensate for it would be easy, but to get all the inner fittings correctly compensated would be a nightmare... :/

I wish I had the equipment to do some experimentation myself. You can cold cast aluminium and other metals (resin with metallic powder), maybe I have to settle for that. If it will be strong enough. But that I can at least test myself.

[Mandelstam]

Ruger casts aluminum piatol parts that require almost zero finishing. I don't think we could aproach their acuracy but it definatly can be done. It will probably be the most cost effective production method in the end.
Ron

Yes if you could make a pattern that results in the correct measurements in the final piece it would be quite cost effective, I agree. But I'm starting to realize that it isn't as simple as using the stock plate as an original... At least not with aluminium.

[Irish Jigger]

I'm sure broadway could encourage Tom Hryniuk to knock up a few CNC  side plates from aircraft quality bar stock to suit our Penn's.
There are few holes requiring threading so it should be a fairly straight forward process.
Could be anodised in a variety of colours and machined for double dogs too.

[Cone]

I have done a little casting in my back yard. I have been wanting to try petrobond or k-bond sand. Some people have gotten impressive detail.
Here is a little info on K-bond.   http://www.foundry.ray-vin.com/k-bond/k-bond.htm   As far as threads go a threaded insert in the mold that is covered with soot could be unscrewed after casting leaving the threads. There is some shrinkage but it is minimal. Hydrogen embrittlement can be a problem but there are ways around that. I would suggest using aluminum from scrap items that were already cast to pour the plates. It will have other metals mixed in the alloy. It will turn out better than pure aluminum. Bob

[Tightlines667]

If someone or severel folks are contemplating casting or machine new alum side plates, why not model them after the Accurate, or ProGear plates.. eliminate the rings, and tighten up the tollerances a bit?  Just a thought.

[Makule]

I'm sure broadway could encourage Tom Hryniuk to knock up a few CNC  side plates from aircraft quality bar stock to suit our Penn's.
There are few holes requiring threading so it should be a fairly straight forward process.
Could be anodised in a variety of colours and machined for double dogs too.

This would be the best way to go, in my view.