Penn Senators : from the beginning

handi2 · June 27, 2015, 05:07:00 PM

I did put the non numbered counter balanced handle on the reel. Along with the 3 piece spool. I'll contact him today, Saturday to see if he will sell it.

What would be a going price? Neither him or I have no idea. The external parts are rough and the internals are very good.

Tightlines667 · August 09, 2015, 10:10:00 PM

I went back to Hickam Harbor boatyard yesterday, and managed to buy an early 10/0 mounted to an early big game boat rod (see http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=14650.15 ).

According to the owner, this particular reel/rod combo was fishing out of Pearl Harbor just after the war ended, and has been hanging in the boathouse at the entrance to the harbor since the early 1960s.

The reel has definately seen some use, and has a rounded gear sleeve, loose bridge, damaged rod clamp, and frozen clicker pawl. It is still spooled with linen line, and has likely caught a number of large marlin, and tuna on the smaller lightweight Hawaiian-built trolling lures popular here in the 1940s and 50s.

The reel is completely non-numbered, and has the weaker stamped reel foot, with small bolts. The 3 piece spool, appears old and may have a drilled arbor. The star is the thicker/early style, and the free spool lever is thicker with the coin edge. The handle is wood, the arm is thick, and has the large coin-edged counterweight. The logo is the newer style, and gearbox is in second gen config.

According to Mike's book the non-numbered, lever-forward 10/0 was produced in 1949/1950, but the handle, stand, bolts, clamp, and possibly the spool seem to suggest prewar production. Any thoughts as to the production year, and value of the reel?

I am looking forward to breaking it down and giving it a through cleaning/restoration. I am happy to own it and will be proud to add it to my display.

Tightlines667 · August 09, 2015, 10:11:10 PM

A few more pics...

Tightlines667 · August 10, 2015, 12:25:02 AM

Quote from: Superhook on March 03, 2015, 12:26:14 PM
Mike,

It was not a reel you gave me but a NOS spool in the black box. Well tonight i found it and it is not drilled , it has a line post. It's looking more like the 1/0 and 2/0's did not have drilled spools. Found a very good early 2/0 with Penn tie on tag with line post.

Ray

Ray here are a couple of pictures of my first year 1/0, and 2/0. Neither have drilled spool arbors. The box is correct for a first year 3/0. The 2/0 is in nearly mint condition. In the background (from right to left) are my first gen config 14/0 (w/later period spool, handle, stand, clamp, braces, bridge, jack, and yoke), second gen 10/0 (likely with prewar spool and wood handle), first year (second run) or second year waffle clicker 49 with a 1941/42 handle (soon to be updated with period correct), and a second (or third year) 149 with the hex clicker. Also a Dover Club, and Pfluger Everlaster with William's drag. Both the 10/0 and Pflueger were local Hawaiian reels that were presumably fished hard.

I also have a complete NOS Peerless Monofil 9MS, and a second year/late first year 109.

Also a waffle clicker 1937 Sea Hawk, brown plate 4 post SeaFord, waffle clicker/4post/metal spool No.15, 3 post, waffle clicker Atlantic Ocean no. 14 trade reel, a 180 w/balsa covered spool, and a 185.

Not a bad start for 4 months of collecting

Penn Chronology · August 10, 2015, 05:36:02 AM

QuoteI went back to Hickam Harbor boatyard yesterday, and managed to buy an early 10/0 mounted to an early big game boat rod (see http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=14650.15 ).

According to the owner, this particular reel/rod combo was fishing out of Pearl Harbor just after the war ended, and has been hanging in the boathouse at the entrance to the harbor since the early 1960s.

The reel has definately seen some use, and has a rounded gear sleeve, loose bridge, damaged rod clamp, and frozen clicker pawl. It is still spooled with linen line, and has likely caught a number of large marlin, and tuna on the smaller lightweight Hawaiian-built trolling lures popular here in the 1940s and 50s.

The reel is completely non-numbered, and has the weaker stamped reel foot, with small bolts. The 3 piece spool, appears old and may have a drilled arbor. The star is the thicker/early style, and the free spool lever is thicker with the coin edge. The handle is wood, the arm is thick, and has the large coin-edged counterweight. The logo is the newer style, and gearbox is in second gen config.

According to Mike's book the non-numbered, lever-forward 10/0 was produced in 1949/1950, but the handle, stand, bolts, clamp, and possibly the spool seem to suggest prewar production. Any thoughts as to the production year, and value of the reel?

I am looking forward to breaking it down and giving it a through cleaning/restoration. I am happy to own it and will be proud to add it to my display.

John, that rig is a great find and what collecting is all about. The Pearl Harbor history is very interesting. According to your info, this reel was in use from 1946, or so, to 1960. With the kind of fishing use that is done in the Hawaiian islands, that could be five lifetimes of use for the average 10/O. Making a judgment about the reel and its true history by using its present condition and parts can be very inconclusive. No telling how many times this reel has been broken down for maintenance or what parts are original or not. The most important thing you should do is record the exact information you have about the rig. Clean the reel and bring it up to the best operating condition you can without changing original parts. You might want to restore the rod. In my opinion, you should first photograph the rod from every angle, then restore it back to the way you found it. A piece like this should be researched to death, its personal history may have surprises. This is one of those rigs that makes you wish it could talk!

Superhook · August 14, 2015, 12:59:46 AM

Tightlines/John,

You are steaming ahead with great collectibles. The early Senator boxes with the heading on an angle are uncommon . Good score on the 3/0 first year box.

Looks like linen line on your 10/0 . It is an early 2nd gen 10/0 and may even have a drilled spool.

Ray

Superhook · October 06, 2015, 04:40:39 AM

You won't see any green rust on these Senators but you may turn a bit green at Ted's collection of beautiful old Senators.

All except the 9/0 on the centre right and the Hot Rod 9/0 at the back left are 3 piece spool versions.

Even a couple of the Old Penn reel bags too.

Thanks for sharing Ted and congratulations on what must have been a lot of time and $'s in putting such fine examples together.

Ray

Superhook · October 06, 2015, 05:34:24 AM

Rowyd's Penn Senator 6/0 with ID on headplate " 114-H " . This was when Penn stepped up the gearing and most people think of them having the maroon plates . This model with the black plates and the 114-H ID is a rare find.

Tightlines667 · October 06, 2015, 05:52:33 AM

Great reels there. I seem to remember that second one there

I have been fortunate-enough to have gained a sneak peak at that pic of Ted's reels before. Absolutely stunning reels especially considering they are basically all over 60 years old. I like that Itty-bitty one too. Looks like most if not all of those could easily pass for NOS or Mint at the very least.

Thanks for sharing.

Alto Mare · October 06, 2015, 09:52:56 AM

Ted, you always amaze me, that is absolutely gorgeous. I believe the 3 piece spool Senator collection is the most sought after and the most difficult to get, I only know of one other person that has one.
Considering the shape that yours are in, it makes it close to impossible to beat.
Very nice my friend. Do I see a 16/0 as well in the bunch?
Thanks for sharing pal, you have a treasure.

Sal

Maxed Out · October 06, 2015, 05:49:54 PM

Ray, the black 114H was the first run of that new model (Mid 1963) and they can be tough to find, but not really rare. Finding one unscathed is rare, cause most these reels were put to use. The holy grail would be for a black 113H to be found, but I am positive the first 113H's were all the dark maroon color.

Sal, there is no 16/0 in the pics Ray posted.... front is 3-12/0's, far back is a couple 10/0, then a handful of 9/0 a couple 6/0 and a 1/0.....my late 50's 16/0 jaws combo is leaning on the wall downstairs.

Notice back left is a late 70's 9/0 with a Dom/Tom frame, and far right behind the 12/0 is a mid 70's "lefty" 9/0. If I had to pick out a favorite it would be the first year 1/0 (1942), but in actuality they're all my favorites.

Tightlines667 · October 06, 2015, 08:02:30 PM

Quote from: Max Doubt on October 06, 2015, 05:49:54 PM

Ray, the black 114H was the first run of that new model (Mid 1963) and they can be tough to find, but not really rare. Finding one unscathed is rare, cause most these reels were put to use. The holy grail would be for a black 113H to be found, but I am positive the first 113H's were all the dark maroon color.

Sal, there is no 16/0 in the pics Ray posted.... front is 3-12/0's, far back is a couple 10/0, then a handful of 9/0 a couple 6/0 and a 1/0.....my late 50's 16/0 jaws combo is leaning on the wall downstairs.

Notice back left is a late 70's 9/0 with a Dom/Tom frame, and far right behind the 12/0 is a mid 70's "lefty" 9/0. If I had to pick out a favorite it would be the first year 1/0 (1942), but in actuality they're all my favorites.

That is my favorite of the group as well. Though I think you have a few others behind glass that can top that gem. Has anyone ever actually seen a 16/0 3-piece spool? Not sure how many 16/0's were produced prior to the 1 piece becoming standard? I would expect the 16/0 to be the first reel to be produced in second gen gearbox config. Maybe there was actually never a full production run in first gen config? & The first Senator to sport a 1-piece spool? Does anyone actually have access to an estimate on the total number of 16/0's produced with a 3-piece spool?

Superhook · October 06, 2015, 10:01:33 PM

Tightlines,

John ,
There is one known/photographed 16/0 1st gen on page 1 of this thread. I have seen some second generation 16/0's with 3 piece spools with both drilled line ties and raised posts . There are not lots about. I think they were a $100 and around 1940 that was a lot of money . The first generation design was obsolete and the parts were used until gone because the 2nd generation design was in production before the war. The catalogs do not show the 2nd generation in the description pages but there are photos of the 2nd generation 16/0's in some of the photos of the fishermen and their catches pre-war at the back of the catalogs. There may have only been a couple of years of 1st gen 16/0 production. There is a NOS 1948/9 16/0 in the L'House box in Mike's book.

Ted,
Thank you for the information on the 114-H . I have only ever seen a couple advertised on Ebay for big dollars. Many are advertised as 114-H but do not have the proper ID.My education of Penn fades away after the late 50's.

Ray

Tightlines667 · October 06, 2015, 10:09:36 PM

Ted,
Thank you for your quick and through response! I was thinking that there must be prewar 16/0's in the second gen build style with drilled arbor, 3-piece spools. Likewise, it seems reasonable to deduce there were likely a few postwar reels that went out with the drilled Arbor spools (as they depleted their prewar stock). I have put out an APB with my local sources for a 16/0 3-piece spool. I am afraid some may have found their way into the garbage when these reels were brought in for servicing (according to the best recollection of my sources). Yet there is still hope. The search continues....

Maxed Out · October 07, 2015, 12:55:56 AM

John, you have obtained some sought after reels in a very short time....your eye is becoming much sharper at knowing the right things to look for. You struck gold on that 1st gen 14/0, and the handle may not be original, but looks like you found a handle that is early 2nd gen, and that's more than most could do....keep the pics coming !!

Ray, you are encyclopedia of info and I believe you are correct for when 1st gen phased out and 2nd gen began. I'm sure there are a few 1st gen 16/0's floating around, and when one surfaces I bet John or Dom will be all over it.