Q: Abu C3 doesn't always engage...what's the cure?

[Ruffy]

Just to take a different tack, check that the little metal tab highlighted hasn't worn out. I had one with wear and the gear would only engage intermittently. It had worn a little groove just near the curve, maybe take a closer photo of the tab for us?

Cheers,
Andrew

[Steve-O]

Just to take a different tack, check that the little metal tab highlighted hasn't worn out. I had one with wear and the gear would only engage intermittently. It had worn a little groove just near the curve, maybe take a closer photo of the tab for us?

Cheers,
Andrew

Ruffy, roger that. Will take a closer look and pic of that tab area.

Others...i like hearing what you're saying in this thread!

I get both your viewpoints. It reminds me of my 100 year old house back in NC. It had a Jackson water heater in it. When it finally rusted out, the replacement came with some code upgrades needed for installation so I let a pro handle it.

He came in and the first thing he said was "a Jackson!?!" ...in amazement...not knowing, I had to ask and got the rest of the story.

Jackson, the man, designed, built and sold  better a water heater. They outlasted every other brand. Tastes, change, vogue comes and goes, Jacksons keep on going. He put himself out of business with "too good" of a product. Mine was 70 years old.

Still debating what to do with the reel. I did find all the needed parts under one roof- dadsoletackle- and may rebuild it.


Or just buy some flashy, orange, blue or metallic green, new reel and toss this one in the bin......

[Reel 224]

Got ya John, I understand you from the sales point of view and I do realize that marketing is key for the manufacturer. We have beat this pretty much do death. So no sense beating a dead horse. I'm just glad I'm not one of those consumers.

T-REX     Joe

[Keta]

Dad's Old Tackle is a good source.

I like the "plastic" part, so far I have never had to replace one and I work on close to as many ABU's as Penn reels.


Something went wrong on this reel, was it overloaded?  Is the shaft or ID of the pinion gear worn enough to allow the gear to flop on the shaft.  Are the pinion gear teeth mushroomed and acting like a saw?


I have a Diawa counterbalanced handle arm with a ball handle on one of my C4's, all of my AR bearing ABU's also have AR dogs.

[Steve-O]

Something "went wrong" with this reel? .....you mean ...  like the angler?   Was it overloaded?   Do you mean over filled with line or maybe casting too much weight ....like 6-8 ounces of massive donkey choker sized carp pack bait?  Seems I recall in 2009 when this reel was being used on a carp rod with a rather large "bomb bait" on it and maybe it went "ZZZzzzzzeeeerrrrrrzzzzz......screeeeeeeel"....or something like that on a particular cast.  Could be the yoke failed on that cast and allowed the pinion and main gears to do some angry interactions together. This particular pic was taken with an iPad and gives poor resolution. I will look at the reel this evening and take a macro shot or two with my Olympus. i don't recall any mushroomed gears or other pinion gear or main gear damages. But I'm a total rookie at this.  It could be more than a damaged yoke.

[foakes]

John is exactly right about the marketing aspect, of course.

However, there is one more thing -- and it is partially our fault...

John mentioned the Penn Baja Special -- which is basically the same as the US Senator.

Did not sell well -- because it looked old fashioned possibly -- not enough pizzazz.

Even though it had nearly every feature we have been advocating for years -- and is a very high quality and durable reel capable of high drag with lots of SS upgrades.

How many of us own one of these? -- or how many of us advocate how good these reels are?

Versa CF geared drags, SS gears, double dogs, double spring eccentric, SS stand, one piece aluminum frame, 6 bearings, aluminum spool, metal click star in later versions, and much more -- all at a low price point for what we receive.

But a lot of us are individualists -- and like the satisfaction and accomplishment of building better reels.  But we are not the mainstream -- the consumers are.

Companies have to stay in business -- and Penn has been responsive to ideas and proven components.  A few companies out there, like Penn, deserve our praise and support.

Maybe the US Senator will sell better worldwide -- since the name Baja Special is fairly limited and identified with the Southern California and Mexican fishing grounds.

A lot of marketing and promoting is perception.  Same old candy bar -- new wrapper.

Best,

Fred

[Steve-O]

A lot of marketing and promoting is perception.  Same old candy bar -- new wrapper.  you got that right....except we ALL know the candy bar is shrinking every year with that fancy new wrapper.  And then they switch the weight from ounces to grams so it even sounds like you're getting more. pffft!

i will check the pinion gear to shaft fit for wallowing, wobble, play as well as the tab area tonight. Then decide what direction to go with this one. I have 2 mint C-4's, one with me here, one stays in Alaska at the lodge where I go each year. I have nearly half my rods and reels up there for just the annual - one week of hard fishing. But I don't have to haul them back and forth, nor pay the airline fees of doing so. My tackle gets cleaned at the end of each trip and stored in a Bazooka tube and in a dry bag duffle up in the lodge garage rafters. If something needs more attention, I will bring it home for repairs or replacement.

Even the C-3's, 4's, 7000's or which ever brand "old school round" casting reel is getting pushed aside by the marketing of the new "sleeker low profile super duper" models. And yes, I'm a consumer who will buy those, too. I just bought an Abu Orra2 Inshore with a power handle to go with me to AK this fall.

[johndtuttle]

Just to take a different tack, check that the little metal tab highlighted hasn't worn out. I had one with wear and the gear would only engage intermittently. It had worn a little groove just near the curve, maybe take a closer photo of the tab for us?

Cheers,
Andrew

Ruffy, roger that. Will take a closer look and pic of that tab area.

Others...i like hearing what you're saying in this thread!

I get both your viewpoints. It reminds me of my 100 year old house back in NC. It had a Jackson water heater in it. When it finally rusted out, the replacement came with some code upgrades needed for installation so I let a pro handle it.

He came in and the first thing he said was "a Jackson!?!" ...in amazement...not knowing, I had to ask and got the rest of the story.

Jackson, the man, designed, built and sold  better a water heater. They outlasted every other brand. Tastes, change, vogue comes and goes, Jacksons keep on going. He put himself out of business with "too good" of a product. Mine was 70 years old.

Still debating what to do with the reel. I did find all the needed parts under one roof- dadsoletackle- and may rebuild it.


Or just buy some flashy, orange, blue or metallic green, new reel and toss this one in the bin......

Believe it or not.... ....right out of High School I worked as a Plumber in new construction from laying the pipes under the floor joists (water, drains and gas...abs/pvc to copper and galvie pipe) to finish plumbing putting in sinks and bathrooms etc.

I will tell you virtually no home owner wants to commit 2 brain cells into a water heater design. They do care about energy efficiency, ie the day to day cost of operation because they have to deal with that....but not a one wants to spend the extra for a water heater that will live longer than they will...it is all out of sight and out of mind as long as they have hot water while they are still kicking...

And the vast majority are sold to building companies that are building new tract homes and you can be sure they care about price pretty much exclusively (the plumber with low bid got the job).

There is a lesson there....because homeowners and plumbers (like fisherman) have a lot of other expenses to keep the ship afloat...and reasonable choices have to be made as to what is invested in... .

[FatTuna]

You might want to try putting some lighter oil in there instead of grease. I think the thick grease can gum up the mechanism making it stick.

[Reel 224]

Just to take a different tack, check that the little metal tab highlighted hasn't worn out. I had one with wear and the gear would only engage intermittently. It had worn a little groove just near the curve, maybe take a closer photo of the tab for us?

Cheers,
Andrew

Ruffy, roger that. Will take a closer look and pic of that tab area.

Others...i like hearing what you're saying in this thread!

I get both your viewpoints. It reminds me of my 100 year old house back in NC. It had a Jackson water heater in it. When it finally rusted out, the replacement came with some code upgrades needed for installation so I let a pro handle it.

He came in and the first thing he said was "a Jackson!?!" ...in amazement...not knowing, I had to ask and got the rest of the story.

Jackson, the man, designed, built and sold  better a water heater. They outlasted every other brand. Tastes, change, vogue comes and goes, Jacksons keep on going. He put himself out of business with "too good" of a product. Mine was 70 years old.

Still debating what to do with the reel. I did find all the needed parts under one roof- dadsoletackle- and may rebuild it.


Or just buy some flashy, orange, blue or metallic green, new reel and toss this one in the bin......

Believe it or not.... ....right out of High School I worked as a Plumber in new construction from laying the pipes under the floor joists (water, drains and gas...abs/pvc to copper and galvie pipe) to finish plumbing putting in sinks and bathrooms etc.

I will tell you virtually no home owner wants to commit 2 brain cells into a water heater design. They do care about energy efficiency, ie the day to day cost of operation because they have to deal with that....but not a one wants to spend the extra for a water heater that will live longer than they will...it is all out of sight and out of mind as long as they have hot water while they are still kicking...

And the vast majority are sold to building companies that are building new tract homes and you can be sure they care about price pretty much exclusively (the plumber with low bid got the job).

There is a lesson there....because homeowners and plumbers (like fisherman) have a lot of other expenses to keep the ship afloat...and reasonable choices have to be made as to what is invested in... .

John: Just as I thought we were finished you drew me back in. I was in the construction industry since I was 14 years old, from carpentry to plumbing, then into the Army Engineers. from there to heavy construction until I completed College much later in life. Then it was civil engineering until that last few years of my working carrier and then it was Land Development Manager For the Lennar Corp. So what you are talking about here is spot on...I'm sad to say. People can learn though,if you keep on trying to educate them. There will always be those that do listen. Big business has taken over the brain game today,but it's up to people like us to educate them in the finer things in life.


It's okay to develop new ideas but don't forget how we got here. That is what has made us successful.   

[Steve-O]

Well, I went and ordered a "plastic" pinion yoke from dads ole tackle for a buck and a half plus the 3 buck shipping. No local reel parts shops around. This reel has been in my bin (and there's only two others in the bin )  for years and just needed something done to it. Either repair and fish it. Repair and sell it, (which I may do ) or toss it back in the bin.

So I have the yoke en route and will have a repaired, ready to fish again reel ...however the greatest gain has been the experience of going through it and hearing the commentary on this and the Revo NaCl reel tutorial threads.  Plastic vs metal yoke friendly discussions were a class A education for me. I've opened and redone a handful of Penns and before joining the AT family, fished and thought reels were some kind of magical, mechanical, marvel of a winch and had no  business looking under the hood to see how that magic happened. Now I'm glad I did.

The two sides of Plastic vs Metal yoke coin also has a coin edge ground wherein lies the thin ground of "the one is better than the other and then the other is better than the one".

I'll have to say for my part the rotating saw pinion gear cutting away on a plastic yoke tips me over to the metal yoke side of the coin. In the reel-ality of the reel world the weight and cost effective solution is gonna land on the plastic yoke side of the coin more times than not, IMO. At least in the low cost, competitive, mainstream consumer's market.

My solution suggestion?....maybe use some super duper Titanium ceramic polymer to make the yoke and other plastic parts out of....that's cheap to manufacture and problem solved.  I mean like Scotty of Star Trek fame came back in time to give an engineer the formula for "transparent Aluminum" ....then why not some chemist come up with the above hardened, frictionless "plastic" ....for a buck and a half per piece?

Oh the bother...

Meanwhile, I'll have a yoke in a week and a good as new reel to fish with or sell.

[johndtuttle]

Well, I went and ordered a "plastic" pinion yoke from dads ole tackle for a buck and a half plus the 3 buck shipping. No local reel parts shops around. This reel has been in my bin (and there's only two others in the bin )  for years and just needed something done to it. Either repair and fish it. Repair and sell it, (which I may do ) or toss it back in the bin.

So I have the yoke en route and will have a repaired, ready to fish again reel ...however the greatest gain has been the experience of going through it and hearing the commentary on this and the Revo NaCl reel tutorial threads.  Plastic vs metal yoke friendly discussions were a class A education for me. I've opened and redone a handful of Penns and before joining the AT family, fished and thought reels were some kind of magical, mechanical, marvel of a winch and had no  business looking under the hood to see how that magic happened. Now I'm glad I did.

The two sides of Plastic vs Metal yoke coin also has a coin edge ground wherein lies the thin ground of "the one is better than the other and then the other is better than the one".

I'll have to say for my part the rotating saw pinion gear cutting away on a plastic yoke tips me over to the metal yoke side of the coin. In the reel-ality of the reel world the weight and cost effective solution is gonna land on the plastic yoke side of the coin more times than not, IMO. At least in the low cost, competitive, mainstream consumer's market.

My solution suggestion?....maybe use some super duper Titanium ceramic polymer to make the yoke and other plastic parts out of....that's cheap to manufacture and problem solved.  I mean like Scotty of Star Trek fame came back in time to give an engineer the formula for "transparent Aluminum" ....then why not some chemist come up with the above hardened, frictionless "plastic" ....for a buck and a half per piece?

Oh the bother...

Meanwhile, I'll have a yoke in a week and a good as new reel to fish with or sell.

Yea, well I guess I want to expand on this a little because I think the issue is more complicated from a technical standpoint than we have been willing to entertain so far.

I guess I feel that Sal et al are comparing the metal yokes to these nylon/delrin ones in an Apples to Apples sort of way but it really is Apples to Oranges.

A Penn Senator uses a simple flat stamped piece of brass:



A Daiwa Lexa (for an example that I had a photo of) the Yoke is a more complex and thicker part:




And this is what I was getting at above. Not shown is the backside of the nylon yoke that also has a more complicated shape than a simple flat, stamped out part. It also slides differently and has to have a low co-efficient of friction. The below image is taken from the Revo Tutorial but the idea is that those steep ramps have to slide freely and the nylon material helps.



Ultimately the point being is that the more complex shape cannot be stamped out for pennies each, it would have to be molded thickly like the nylon part. Well, then it gets quite heavy and more costly and for what? All the part does is kick the pinion upward. The gears are cut in such a way that the main drives the pinon onto the spool so there is no force whatsoever on the yoke during operation (unless the reel is overloaded in some way or there is a failure of maintenance that causes it to hang up).

As well if it does hang up on the pinion like the OP's I would rather see the $1.50 yoke get torn up than the pinion and the reel still function...

Regardless, I am just trying to say that "make it out of metal" is not as simple as it would appear at first glance if we only use the Senator as our frame of reference.

I think Keta's experience that the part very rarely has trouble is very valuable.

I believe that Abu, Daiwa, Shimano and Okuma et al are using these nylon yokes because they function and are a lightweight solution to a complicated engineering problem, far more complicated than a Senator yoke.


best

[Reel 224]

Thicker because it is plastic,and more complicated by design. Just sayin 

[johndtuttle]

Thicker because it is plastic,and more complicated by design. Just sayin 

Absolutely correct.

It's a solution to the "Thumb Clutch Levers" they all have adopted. It uses a rotation of the internals rather than a sliding eccentric plate like a Senator et al because the rotational mechanism is a more compact engineering. You don't need the "throw length" of the plate like in a Senator as this mechanism rotates around a central axis rather than having to slide.

There is no question that if the goal was ultimate reliability when stranded on a desert island was the goal then we would all be using our Baja Specials for decades....

But we are talking about reels for all day light tackle casting (thumb button so nice) the biggest ones weigh something like 10-11 oz overall (the bass sized reels are only 7oz!)...as compared to a Baja that weighs 4 times as much (literally at 30oz).


best

[Alto Mare]

I removed my last comment, I believe this is getting dragged too far.