Fixing A Grabbing Drag

[Rivverrat]

Jeff: I understand your reasoning so far, I would only suggest that after using the emery cloth to resurface the washers, I would then take the next step and do what Tiddlerbasher does, using a polishing compound. Since you made mention to trigger work then I will say this when we are adjusting travel and a smooth brake we use an India stone to polish the two surfaces of the sear and hammer connection to decrease surface friction. If the same applies to your intent with the drag system, then polishing the washers should help. Respectfully;   Joe  

Yes & Yes.....A reel that has any hiccup at all when it comes to releasing line smoothly is a problematic & an irritating thing for me to use. The same thing my customers have to come to expect from my DA revolvers. Sights lined up at 6:00 on a coin or other small target, proper stance, wrist locked & while working the trigger at a snails pace through out it's travel in DA the front sight should not wobble or bobble off target AT ALL...NOT ONE LITTLE BIT! The perfect drag for reels does not exist. But the end goal regarding double action revolvers does have some parallels with what's wanted regarding drags on reels.

Right now as things sit I am not as pleased as some with the HT 100 drag washers. This may change. They have been a step in the right direction compared to what was offered prior.  But in order to realize the full benefit of a high level polish both surfaces must be true. The HT 100 washers are not. This is why in my prior post I made mention of wondering about a point of diminishing returns regarding polishing. I'm far from done. My end goal is a glass smooth drag @ 18 lbs. of drag....Jeff

[Reel 224]

Right on brother sounds great. I could go on for days about a victory model 38 that I have since I was in the Army, I reworked it and the double action is incredible....smooooth as a babies bottom . Have a 45 long colt that I did a complete rework on trigger and action that is absolutely scary....wrong place to be talkin shop though.


I'm interested in how things workout on the drag system, please keep us in the loop.     

[Alto Mare]

Nice job and I do agree, but I believe other things come into play.
I hear you about max numbers being worthless, but lets use them for comparison. Increasing drag numbers  close to double, as we've been doing on some reels here, will get you silky smooth drags at were that particular reel was meant to be maxed at.
The Jigmaster for instance is maxed at 15lbs, we've increased it to 24lbs making that reel  very smooth at 15lbs.

Bryan's metal washers from the kit and some other custom washers available here, do not need lapping as the stock stamped washers do.

Also, if you place a Delrin washer for under the main gear, you would do even better.
I came to a conclusion that if you want smoother drags, you need to find a way to increase drag numbers on that particular reel.
This is one of the reason we've been increasing drags here, not to fish a Jigmaster at 24lbs, but to be able to fish it at 15-18 lbs while maintaining silky smooth drags.

Sal

[Rancanfish]

Great explanation Sal.

[Rivverrat]

Also, if you place a Delrin washer for under the main gear, you would do even better.
I came to a conclusion that if you want smoother drags, you need to find a way to increase drag numbers on that particular reel.
This is one of the reason we've been increasing drags here, not to fish a Jigmaster at 24lbs, but to be able to fish it at 15-18 lbs while maintaining silky smooth drags.

Sal

Yup Sal, I agree totally with you. To arrive at the level of drag performance I desire the max drag produced by my reels will more than likely increase. But I look at it a little different than your self. By doing what I need to do to get the performance I'm after & let the max unfishable drag level fall where ever it may. We both have the same end goal just 2 good & different ways to look at it.


Also, can anyone state that there is a noticeable difference between a delrin washers vs. the washer Penn uses under the main gear on their Fathoms?

[fIsHsTiiCkS]

Also, if you place a Delrin washer for under the main gear, you would do even better.
I came to a conclusion that if you want smoother drags, you need to find a way to increase drag numbers on that particular reel.
This is one of the reason we've been increasing drags here, not to fish a Jigmaster at 24lbs, but to be able to fish it at 15-18 lbs while maintaining silky smooth drags.

Sal

Yup Sal, I agree totally with you. To arrive at the level of drag performance I desire the max drag produced by my reels will more than likely increase. But I look at it a little different than your self. By doing what I need to do to get the performance I'm after & let the max unfishable drag level fall where ever it may. We both have the same end goal just 2 good & different ways to look at it.


Also, can anyone state that there is a noticeable difference between a delrin washers vs. the washer Penn uses under the main gear on their Fathoms?

I have just replaced the washer under my Fathom 25n and I can say there is a noticeable difference, however I have not fished it yet or should I say caught a fish on it yet! But I used the PTFE Delrin.

[jaypeegee]

Interesting this is....

I would very much like to see what factors makes a smooth drag defined via group discussion. I think that would be an interesting debate...

This because while it seems likely that lapping washers would contribute to a smoother drag, however it also seems intuitively correct that a larger surface area would increase drag friction and this is incorrect (As far as I understand it).

So a definition of the conditions and factors required for good and bad drag seems to be in order here.

[handi2]

I started sanding metal drag washers way back before Dawn had them available. It's very time consuming work but does help greatly on some reels.

[Reel 224]

Interesting this is....

I would very much like to see what factors makes a smooth drag defined via group discussion. I think that would be an interesting debate...

This because while it seems likely that lapping washers would contribute to a smoother drag, however it also seems intuitively correct that a larger surface area would increase drag friction and this is incorrect (As far as I understand it).

So a definition of the conditions and factors required for good and bad drag seems to be in order here.

Based on surface area only given that the surface is pours or etched, you would be correct as far as friction is concerned, but polishing that surface to a fine finish and applying Cal's grease will eliminate most of the friction to a smoother resistance....there will still be friction but not as two dissimilar surfaces would cause.

You need friction to create drag, but to accomplish smoothness you also need a fine finish between mettle and fiber, also by adding more washers to that stack give you more ability to create the resistance needed to increase drag. Delran or Carbon Fiber seams to accomplish the task well....as I understand it. Bryan or Fred or Sal can probably explaine it better then I can, but this is how I see it.       

[Rivverrat]

Regarding drag.....we most definitely want friction. But the fly in the ointment here is as we increase the drag / friction & start getting into the outer limits of the design of a specific reel, weaknesses begin to show.
In a reel like my Fathom star drag we have a fantastic reel with a good drag. Just 10 years ago there was nothing available at its price point that could perform as well as it does.

I am pushing this reel a bit. By probably 2 line classes. Meaning this reel is at its stellar best fished with 40 lb.line I'm using 60. This reel will never deliver a glass smooth, appropriate for 60 lb. line,  drag of 20 lbs.     Not with out sinking more time & money in it than its worth.

20 lbs. of drag is not the same in every reel that can produce it. Some do it very smooth others can do it well in short spurts. Few small, easy to cast reels will last years fished with the drag at this level.   I'm using this 20 lb. level because this is the point I have come to learn that in a very dramatic way,cleanly & very clearly separates a true big game from small game reel.  It also in the same like manner separates the benchmark best that can be mass produced by a given manufacture from the  price point level of reels .  

To produce this level of drag makes heat. The longer this heat is produced the more time it has to cause things to expand. Your better reels have thick aluminum side plates & thick frames all of which act as a heat sink.....throwing away heat. Which in turn helps all tolerances in the reel to stay some what stable. Not to mention the reel is just stout to start with & can easily handle these forces

A good drag is one that produces smooth release of line along with the reels capacity to maintain tolerances allowing the drag to be consistent.

It's hard to have a discussion of  what is a good drag & it's function with out including what it's housed in.

Once we start getting above 15 lbs. with a desire to stop long running fish or in my case want the drag to produce a high level in a small package & do it for years.....Well the best designed, smoothest, coolest running drag just ain't worth much at all if it's not surrounded by the right components / reel.....Jeff

[Rivverrat]

I have just replaced the washer under my Fathom 25n and I can say there is a noticeable difference, however I have not fished it yet or should I say caught a fish on it yet! But I used the PTFE Delrin.

You have a message...Jeff

[Reel 224]

Regarding drag.....we most definitely want friction. But the fly in the ointment here is as we increase the drag / friction & start getting into the outer limits of the design of a specific reel, weaknesses begin to show.
In a reel like my Fathom star drag we have a fantastic reel with a good drag. Just 10 years ago there was nothing available at its price point that could perform as well as it does.

I am pushing this reel a bit. By probably 2 line classes. Meaning this reel is at its stellar best fished with 40 lb.line I'm using 60. This reel will never deliver a glass smooth, appropriate for 60 lb. line,  drag of 20 lbs.     Not with out sinking more time & money in it than its worth.

20 lbs. of drag is not the same in every reel that can produce it. Some do it very smooth others can do it well in short spurts. Few small, easy to cast reels will last years fished with the drag at this level.   I'm using this 20 lb. level because this is the point I have come to learn that in a very dramatic way,cleanly & very clearly separates a true big game from small game reel.  It also in the same like manner separates the benchmark best that can be mass produced by a given manufacture from the  price point level of reels .  

To produce this level of drag makes heat. The longer this heat is produced the more time it has to cause things to expand. Your better reels have thick aluminum side plates & thick frames all of which act as a heat sink.....throwing away heat. Which in turn helps all tolerances in the reel to stay some what stable. Not to mention the reel is just stout to start with & can easily handle these forces

A good drag is one that produces smooth release of line along with the reels capacity to maintain tolerances allowing the drag to be consistent.

It's hard to have a discussion of  what is a good drag & it's function with out including what it's housed in.

Once we start getting above 15 lbs. with a desire to stop long running fish or in my case want the drag to produce a high level in a small package & do it for years.....Well the best designed, smoothest, coolest running drag just ain't worth much at all if it's not surrounded by the right components / reel.....Jeff

For me I would buy the tool that does the job, and not bring a sling shot to a gun fight. If you are asking a fresh water reel to do the job of a 12/0 then I think that's like comparing an elephant to a mouse. 

[jaypeegee]

Hi

Not picking on you Reel 224. You were kind enough to take the time to answer so I figure I will address your points (either correctly  or incorrectly) and we can both learn from any discussion that comes from this.

Based on surface area only given that the surface is pours or etched, you would be correct as far as friction is concerned,

I agree with you as far as I can understand this concept. Drag comes from pressure between two materials based on the movement and material type.
Metal against metal has a different behaviour than metal against carbon fibre or leather as example..
(Is this due to the flexibilty of the non metal component  It seems logical but I cannot prove it)
More pressure equals more friction but not necessarily smooth fishable drag.
More surface area requires more pressure to eqyual more friction


- If we think about this non practically, like in a lab I wonder could it be true that two identical surfaces polished to infinite smoothness would grab or at least behave in the opposite manner than I assume they would?

but polishing that surface to a fine finish and applying Cal's grease will eliminate most of the friction to a smoother resistance....there will still be friction but not as two dissimilar surfaces would cause.

Once a grease is put into a reel drag, assuming a metal and carbon fibre mating, then is the grease essentially a third "plate".
Is it lubricating or providing a non solid third "disc" ?
On a long fast running fish what is impact of the heat transfer and subsequent size increase of the drag components due to the grease increasing the surface area in the same way you put oil in a frying pan It seems logical that the grease assists smooth startup but will it have a negative impact as friction generated heat increases.
This isnt an argument to not include grease - although I believe the Avet team's philosophy is rooted in this idea.

You need friction to create drag, but to accomplish smoothness you also need a fine finish between mettle and fiber,

This seems correct but not completely.
Smoothness comes from
-the height of the drag stack,
-the type of spring and material the spring is made of, 
-how the pressure is applied to the drag stack, 
-how much the reel frame flexes/doesnt flex.
-Other factors I havent thought of/am too dumb to think of

also by adding more washers to that stack give you more ability to create the resistance needed to increase drag.
Delran or Carbon Fiber seams to accomplish the task well....as I understand it.

To a point I agree. But I see at least one pitfall in exceeding the max drag and getting to lockdown due to over stacking the available drag stack height.
If you mean replacing washers with the same dimensioned but better made washers then I can see this as true.

Bryan or Fred or Sal can probably explaine it better then I can, but this is how I see it.       

Someone better My brain needs a break :-)

[Reel 224]

Hi

Not picking on you Reel 224. You were kind enough to take the time to answer so I figure I will address your points (either correctly  or incorrectly) and we can both learn from any discussion that comes from this.

Based on surface area only given that the surface is pours or etched, you would be correct as far as friction is concerned,

I agree with you as far as I can understand this concept. Drag comes from pressure between two materials based on the movement and material type.
Metal against metal has a different behaviour than metal against carbon fibre or leather as example..
(Is this due to the flexibilty of the non metal component  It seems logical but I cannot prove it)
More pressure equals more friction but not necessarily smooth fishable drag.
More surface area requires more pressure to eqyual more friction


- If we think about this non practically, like in a lab I wonder could it be true that two identical surfaces polished to infinite smoothness would grab or at least behave in the opposite manner than I assume they would?

but polishing that surface to a fine finish and applying Cal's grease will eliminate most of the friction to a smoother resistance....there will still be friction but not as two dissimilar surfaces would cause.

Once a grease is put into a reel drag, assuming a metal and carbon fibre mating, then is the grease essentially a third "plate".
Is it lubricating or providing a non solid third "disc" ?
On a long fast running fish what is impact of the heat transfer and subsequent size increase of the drag components due to the grease increasing the surface area in the same way you put oil in a frying pan It seems logical that the grease assists smooth startup but will it have a negative impact as friction generated heat increases.
This isnt an argument to not include grease - although I believe the Avet team's philosophy is rooted in this idea.

You need friction to create drag, but to accomplish smoothness you also need a fine finish between mettle and fiber,

This seems correct but not completely.
Smoothness comes from
-the height of the drag stack,
-the type of spring and material the spring is made of, 
-how the pressure is applied to the drag stack, 
-how much the reel frame flexes/doesnt flex.
-Other factors I havent thought of/am too dumb to think of

also by adding more washers to that stack give you more ability to create the resistance needed to increase drag.
Delran or Carbon Fiber seams to accomplish the task well....as I understand it.

To a point I agree. But I see at least one pitfall in exceeding the max drag and getting to lockdown due to over stacking the available drag stack height.
If you mean replacing washers with the same dimensioned but better made washers then I can see this as true.

Bryan or Fred or Sal can probably explaine it better then I can, but this is how I see it.       

Someone better My brain needs a break :-)

We are over anal-lizing the situation.

[Rivverrat]

 

For me I would buy the tool that does the job, and not bring a sling shot to a gun fight. If you are asking a fresh water reel to do the job of a 12/0 then I think that's like comparing an elephant to a mouse.  

Yup, I agree. I will eventually purchase 3 Makiaras. But right now I have a need to make the best of what I have in hand.....Jeff