Wrapping my rod

Started by Reel 224, March 11, 2016, 10:39:48 PM

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Reel 224

Not that ignoring the advice Jeri, but I used the masking the way Sid mentioned only I was introduced to that method and also was told to leave ample space between the raps for the Epoxy to adhere to the rod. That being said I will certainly try the dry wall tape on my next build.


Joe 
"I don't know the key to success,but the key to failure is trying to please everyone."

Newell Nut

Joe

If you used narrow tape then the space is greater for a better epoxy bond also. I normally use three tape arbors and slop the epoxy to it heavy and keep foil under it as I slide the seat on. Be careful with that fast set stuff. Absolutely no room for error. I don't use it and sometimes I have multiple handles to epoxy and I can take my sweet time to get everything just perfect and no rush. Rushing creates errors.

Dwight

Reel 224

Dwight:  ;D I don't know how to rush. I have to get narrow masking tap anyway for setting up guides, Ive run out. I have the slow setting epoxy also.

Joe
"I don't know the key to success,but the key to failure is trying to please everyone."

jigmaster501

In extreme hot and cold weather the glue will weaken on the masking tape and I have seen numerous reel seats come off with masking tape bushings.

The drywall mesh tape will work but like string, you have to lay it in a bed of epoxy and keep filling as you are wrapping.

I lay the cotton string (using different thickness as needed) on dry and slide the reel seat on with it being snug.

I slide off the reel seat, scuff the blank, acetone the scuffed area and when dry apply epoxy on the section and start rolling on the string laying on the epoxy heavy as I wrap so it is all wet. When I get to the end of the string, I apply more epoxy on top then apply a  band of epoxy  UP the blank and roll the loose reel seat on it to fully coat the inner surface. Then I slide and spin it down the direction I wrapped the string until it is in place. It gets messy so I wrap masking tape over the whole reel seat, grips, etc, until in place and then remove the tape and clean any excess with acetone.

For a blank that you don't need much of a bushing, I will use PC7 Paste and wrap a spiral of cotton string until snug and they lay that in a bed of the PC7. Both work well.

This is the easy part actually. The hardest part is guide spacing and getting it just right with the loading of the rod.

Lets not forget the flexcoat where we can ruin everything after we spent hours getting everything just right.....lol

Actually this year I started using a heat gun with my friend and it works wonders with bubbles. I blow the gun up and away but roll the rod down and towards me so the bubble run up and out...

We are a nutty bunch, that is for sure...

cbar45

#19
Hello,

When I first started building rods 20 years ago, it seemed the arbors of choice were either masking tape or nylon/cotton cord. Installed properly, they did the job. The very few failures I've seen were caused by either water intrusion, or a problem with the adhesive bond breaking loose due to poor prep work or a lack of epoxy on mating surfaces. If using masking tape for arbors, it was important to completely encapsulate the tape with epoxy and "fill in the voids" as Sid observed. It helped to also dry-fit the seat a few times, compressing the tape and adding a band or two if necessary, such that the final space between tape and seat is kept at a minimum. I've known a few builders who would go even further and cut channels or flutes into the tape for what they felt was extra adhesion.

That being said, these days I only use polyurethane arbors or drywall tape depending on application. The polyurethane arbors are a pleasure to work with as they take only a few minutes to ream and install. Also MUCH lighter than masking tape. For reaming tasks you can use either the special flex-coat pilot bit, or make your own from a spade-point bit and a piece of 1/4" aluminum tubing. Another method as shown below, is to cut the arbor into quarters and ream each piece separately:



Drywall tape arbors are a bit more work as jigmaster501 described, but they are also very strong. Only caveat is that I've seen a few rods done by other builders, on which the reel seat broke loose due to the tape's tendency to compress during installation--especially true when the arbor is thicker than usual, compounded with not enough epoxy. I imagine if you kept the thickness below 1mm as Jeri suggests you will be fine. I do things a bit differently in that all my drywall arbors are first wrapped to size, filled with epoxy--and then once cured--are turned down if needed to fit the reel seat. You could say the end result is very much like using an arbor made of solid polyurethane. The following photo was for a 316 SS butt-cap, hence the reason only two arbors are used:



As far as prep work, I was taught to follow the steps of Clean, De-gloss, and Glue--in that order. Plain old 91% Isopropyl does a good job of removing any oils or residue on the blank before glue-up, as does Dawn dishwashing detergent. For de-glossing I use either the grey or blue Scotchbrite pad, or fine sandpaper (400 grit and higher) depending on what is being glued; Anything rougher is for material removal and will only end up gouging the surfaces to be glued, rather than de-glossing. Here is a tutorial that better describes the process, note Ralph's use of the term "water break free" and its application in rodbuilding:

http://www.rodbuilding.org/library/waterfree.html

Chad

Reel 224

Very nice Chad I copied that to my documents file for further reference. Here is what Ive done so far with the Dragon Scale.

Joe


   
"I don't know the key to success,but the key to failure is trying to please everyone."

Reel 224

#21
Finished my first attempt at Dragon Scales. It wasn't perfect but for the first attempt I think it was darn good.

Joe

"I don't know the key to success,but the key to failure is trying to please everyone."

cbar45

Congrats on your first dragon-scale Joe! Layout, under-wrap, and over-wrap all appear to have been carefully done. Of course, after completion you see a few things you want to improve on the next time around--but the important part here is that you've shown you understand the concept and how to apply it.

P.S.
You had me stumped as to how you managed to produce a variegated-colored wrap with only black, gold, and silver...Then I realized the "silver" was actually the glare of true variegated thread..;) That color is quite hard to photograph, I know the photos here didn't do your wrap justice.

Chad

Reel 224

Quote from: cbar45 on March 15, 2016, 08:38:40 PM
Congrats on your first dragon-scale Joe! Layout, under-wrap, and over-wrap all appear to have been carefully done. Of course, after completion you see a few things you want to improve on the next time around--but the important part here is that you've shown you understand the concept and how to apply it.

P.S.
You had me stumped as to how you managed to produce a variegated-colored wrap with only black, gold, and silver...Then I realized the "silver" was actually the glare of true variegated thread..;) That color is quite hard to photograph, I know the photos here didn't do your wrap justice.

Chad


Thank you Chad; Should I seal the wrap with Diamond ll before I do the border wrap?

Joe 
"I don't know the key to success,but the key to failure is trying to please everyone."

cbar45

Quote from: Reel 224 on March 15, 2016, 08:52:11 PM

Thank you Chad; Should I seal the wrap with Diamond ll before I do the border wrap?

Joe  

If you are referring to an "end cap" trim wrap at opposing ends, you have the choice of either doing it directly over the dragon-scale, or sealing the dragon-scale first as you mention.

Doing the wrap directly over the dragon-scale works fine if it is relatively simple, (thick bands/solid color), and of thicker thread than the dragon-scale. You also want to wrap the end-cap in the opposite direction of which you did the dragon scale--keeps the thread from digging into the layer below.

Applying a coat of finish to the dragon-scale prior to wrapping over it works best if you will be doing a wrap that is intricate--thin trim bands, inlays, fades, etc. Having finish over the dragon-scale makes it much easier to pack and adjust such a trim wrap. I prefer to first apply a very thin coat of finish such that you can still see the ridges in the thread. Thin coats make it easy for any bubbles to release, and working with metallic means lots of bubbles.;) Once cured, a second thin coat is applied--allowed to harden sufficiently--and then the end-caps, or borders as you call it, are wrapped.

Chad

Marcq


Reel 224

Quote from: cbar45 on March 15, 2016, 09:24:19 PM
Quote from: Reel 224 on March 15, 2016, 08:52:11 PM

Thank you Chad; Should I seal the wrap with Diamond ll before I do the border wrap?

Joe  

If you are referring to an "end cap" trim wrap at opposing ends, you have the choice of either doing it directly over the dragon-scale, or sealing the dragon-scale first as you mention.

Doing the wrap directly over the dragon-scale works fine if it is relatively simple, (thick bands/solid color), and of thicker thread than the dragon-scale. You also want to wrap the end-cap in the opposite direction of which you did the dragon scale--keeps the thread from digging into the layer below.

Applying a coat of finish to the dragon-scale prior to wrapping over it works best if you will be doing a wrap that is intricate--thin trim bands, inlays, fades, etc. Having finish over the dragon-scale makes it much easier to pack and adjust such a trim wrap. I prefer to first apply a very thin coat of finish such that you can still see the ridges in the thread. Thin coats make it easy for any bubbles to release, and working with metallic means lots of bubbles.;) Once cured, a second thin coat is applied--allowed to harden sufficiently--and then the end-caps, or borders as you call it, are wrapped.

Chad


Chad: That answered my question excitingly. While I was doing the wrap over the E-thread I found it impossible to wrap under power with the "A" thread, I had to turn the chuck by hand. For the border I'm using "D" thread Solid color W/trim bands. Thank you for all the tips.

Joe 
"I don't know the key to success,but the key to failure is trying to please everyone."

Tightlines667

Nice work Joe!  The dragon scales look great to me.  Chad thanks for the informative responses.  I have been struggling a bit with trying to decide on the types of decrative and end cap trim wraps to stick to when building fully rollered, 80 and 130 class e-glass rods.  What I am gleaming from online resources in general is that the final strength of the rod is of paramount importance, and it seems most guys specializing in the heavier rod classes recommend using all D size threads, or maybe A decorative and under wraps, with D sized over wraps.  Also, if possible stick to dark NCP and metallic threads and don't apply any undercoat of finish (not even colorpreserver).  The idea is that applying the first coat of heavy build to all thread work at once, will form a more cohesive/stronger single bond between all threads, guides, and the blank.  This seems reasonable, and would certainly save on time, but on the other hand if closed butt wraps, tiger wraps, fades, single thread inlays, or A size thread is used on bottom wraps it seems like a base coat of light build and/or colorpreserver would be in order (and pretty much required when using translucent thread over a dark blank).  Also, a thin coat seems like it would help with bubble release especially with metalics.  Shouldn't more layers/coats of epoxy make the rod stronger?  Guess I am a bit confused as to how best to proceed.  I had intended to wrap everything in D size with double underguide wraps, treat with color preserver, and double overwrap the guides and apply 2 coats, of heavy build epoxy when all wrapping is done.  If I decide to use tiger wraps, should I finish all of my base wraps, treat with color preserver, then a single coat of low build epoxy, before mounting guides, finishing overwraps, and then finally 1 to 2 coats of heavy build.

Sorry to thread jack Joe.  Keep up the good work.  Nice to know I am not the only one just learning to play this custom rod building game.

John
Hope springs eternal
for the consumate fishermen.

Reel 224

"I don't know the key to success,but the key to failure is trying to please everyone."

Reel 224

Quote from: Tightlines666 on March 15, 2016, 11:26:17 PM
Nice work Joe!  The dragon scales look great to me.  Chad thanks for the informative responses.  I have been struggling a bit with trying to decide on the types of decrative and end cap trim wraps to stick to when building fully rollered, 80 and 130 class e-glass rods.  What I am gleaming from online resources in general is that the final strength of the rod is of paramount importance, and it seems most guys specializing in the heavier rod classes recommend using all D size threads, or maybe A decorative and under wraps, with D sized over wraps.  Also, if possible stick to dark NCP and metallic threads and don't apply any undercoat of finish (not even colorpreserver).  The idea is that applying the first coat of heavy build to all thread work at once, will form a more cohesive/stronger single bond between all threads, guides, and the blank.  This seems reasonable, and would certainly save on time, but on the other hand if closed butt wraps, tiger wraps, fades, single thread inlays, or A size thread is used on bottom wraps it seems like a base coat of light build and/or colorpreserver would be in order (and pretty much required when using translucent thread over a dark blank).  Also, a thin coat seems like it would help with bubble release especially with metalics.  Shouldn't more layers/coats of epoxy make the rod stronger?  Guess I am a bit confused as to how best to proceed.  I had intended to wrap everything in D size with double underguide wraps, treat with color preserver, and double overwrap the guides and apply 2 coats, of heavy build epoxy when all wrapping is done.  If I decide to use tiger wraps, should I finish all of my base wraps, treat with color preserver, then a single coat of low build epoxy, before mounting guides, finishing overwraps, and then finally 1 to 2 coats of heavy build.

Sorry to thread jack Joe.  Keep up the good work.  Nice to know I am not the only one just learning to play this custom rod building game.

John

John: I certainly understand and don't mind at all.

Joe
"I don't know the key to success,but the key to failure is trying to please everyone."