Penn Baja Special anti-reverse problem

[handi2]

Penn states 27lbs on the reel.

If he cranks it down hard and something breaks I will send it back to Penn.

[Rivverrat]

I understand. I've been told directly on the phone by an individual at Penn these reels are fine fished at that level of drag. I do not in any way believe I was being mislead or lied to. The issue I believe is not many people fish & even fewer fish this reel past 15 - 20 lbs. Short term test would lead one to believe this reel could & would do it. But with the acceptance of braid, capacity is no longer the same issue & people are stepping up the line class.

I think with some minor enhancements this reel could live a long life fished around 25 lbs or more....Jeff

[jurelometer]

Thanks to the folks that have posted photos- this provided lots of useful data

So how much force is is being placed on the dog posts?  I don't have the exact dimensions for the reel but will approximate: 

Assuming a filled spool is 3 in., ratchet diameter is .8 in, and the gear ratio is 4.3:1 - we can plug this into the handy calculator - third formula posted by (me..):  http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=14241.0

and we get  435 lbs of force at 27 lbs of drag (assuming my math is correct).

The dogs essentially float on the dog spring near the top of the post.  Every time the the reel is flipped into gear and the drag starts slipping, it is like smacking the top of dog post with a hammer at 435 lbs of force.   Also letting go of the handle while the dogs engage.  Then include the additional wear and tear from the steady load under any time the reel is in gear.   I would speculate that the portion of the post that fits inside the bridge being a smaller diameter would also contribute to what is essentially an issue caused by designed-in unnecessary leverage.   

Any wear on the dog post hole in the brass (soft metal) bridge further converts the lateral force to a vertical force driving the post up and out of the hole.  Any upward tilt on the dog would make this worse.  Or in simpler terms,  this design leads to more angular force and leverage against the post hole than most other salt water conventional star drag designs.   A more common design is to keep the dogs at the bottom of the post and supported by the bridge- keeping the force in a more lateral direction.

I may be totally wrong here, but I would wager that any solution that did not sufficiently resolve the leverage issue will not fix the problem.   And if I am right, the next question is, was Penn's placement of the dog/ratchet assembly well above the bridge a design oversight, an economic decision, or a necessary evil to address another design constraint?

Sal made what I thought was a pretty good  proposal that has a decent chance of addressing the root cause,  It would only require replacement dogs, ratchet and springs.  I have another idea or two as well (not sure if they are better than Sal's) -  if somebody wants to try to make an upgrade- feel free to PM me.   I personally am not interested  in doing this.

As to whether this problem occurs when the reel is being used within specs- I'll leave that for others to decide

But for purposes of comparison, just this week I was fishing with a Baja pangero's daily driver 113h-  it was an older model with the chrome posts (one missing).   60 lb test with the drag buttoned down for yellowtail and amberjack.  I had to rail the rod and sit on the handle  to keep it from going overboard on a big yellowtail.   This reel has probably caught a ridiculous amount of jumbo yellowtail, a bunch of marlin, sailfish and amberjack, and might not ever have been serviced.   It was a bit corroded. 
Everything mechanical on the reel was pretty sloppy and worn, but it was still getting the job done.  Will the Baja Special/ US Senator fare as well?

-J

[Rivverrat]

 jurelometer,  you make some very valid points.  I have also reasoned that the dogs riding so high above the bridge & high on their post contributes in a big way to the issues I & others are experiencing. Im looking into cost of coming up with something better. You have a PM....Jeff

[jurelometer]

One other thing:  has anyone heard anything further from Penn on this issue?  No reason to do an upgrade ourselves if Penn is going to step up.

[steelfish]

One other thing:  has anyone heard anything further from Penn on this issue?  No reason to do an upgrade ourselves if Penn is going to step up.

if you can do something to upgrade those parts go for it, Penn have keeping an eye on this supposedly but never heard anything from them other than a new and softer ratchet.

I wish I have the skill and tools to try to make an improvement but Im not LOL.


its really good to hear guys searching for an improvement on this reel, just look at it as Alan T/ Alan C, Lee, etc.. have made stronger parts for the good old reels 113h/114h/112h, etc

[Cortez_Conversions]

I'm going to try my best to get something done for you guys.
Maybe even in time for Sal to give a set to Tony when they do their tour next week.

[steelfish]

Awesome, Tom.

thanks,

[Tightlines667]

I'm going to try my best to get something done for you guys.
Maybe even in time for Sal to give a set to Tony when they do their tour next week.

This is good stuff!

[Alto Mare]

That would be great Tom, the only problem, it needs to be in the mail by Wednesday, maybe Thursday .

[SoCalAngler]

I head down to Loreto the 26th of next month and have a 113HN new in box that I bought about 7 years ago. The reel is spooled with straight 40 lb mono. I could bring that reel down if you would like some testing and then send the parts back to you too look at.

You may want to test it on heavier drags than the 40 lb line though. I could fish bait, yoyo iron and even put it into the trolling we do.

[Cortez_Conversions]

I ordered a new bridge set and Ebayed a donor reel. Here are my two cents in no particular order:
Penn tried to cut cost by making a two piece gear sleeve.
I had to file the handle step on the donor gear sleeve because the brass was deformed and I couldn't remove the gear and drag stack.
This could be solved with a stainless sleeve or more meat for the handle to rest on..
The stamped ratchet is no bueno. The donor and new ratchet both are cupped which gives a poor alignment with the dogs.
Dogs are still cast. Casting material does not do well with shock. I.E. striking the ratchet and or the ratchet back peddling with hook set into the dogs.
In Alexs'(steelfish) pic you can clearly see how the dogs are tilted, there is way too much slop in the assembly.
All the back pressure is directed at one sharp edge of the dog. this is what causes the dogs to chip and fracture.
Once the dogs break down, they get pulled down between the ratchet and the dog post. This is what splays the dog posts.

So my attempt at a fix:
This pic shows the new dog posts and a 1" diameter delrin washer unter the gear.
Notice they keep the dogs nice and true to the ratchet?
The posts are pressed into the bridge AND screwed in From the back side so they can't bow out.
Now that the dogs are held square, the ratchet only engages on the top half of the dogs.


To be continued.......

[steelfish]

Dog posts look really good..

[RowdyW]

It looks like the ratchet teeth need to be more then twice as wide as they are now to engage with a full bite on the dogs.     Rudy

[Robert Janssen]

Good job.

I gotta admit, i've been sort of following this from a distance and wondering what the problem is. The ratchet sucks, so just make a new one. Wider face, with a recess or counterbore to bring it down a few millimeters. Not a big deal for several members of this site.
The dogs suck, so make new ones, as again several members of this site already do.
The dog posts suck, so make longer ones that can be peened on the back side.

...and we get 435 lbs of force at 27 lbs of drag (assuming my math is correct)

Well, i didn't work too hard on it, but that number seemed really unreasonable at first glance. Giving it a closer look, it seems to me to be about 70 pounds.

(Which doesn't take into account the height of the dogs high up on the posts, and presumes a purely tangential force between dog post and ratchet, or that there are two dogs, so thats 35 lbs each if they are synchronous)

It doesn't take into account that i haven'had enough coffee taday either though.

.