Tester Needed: 113H insert drag kit

[Three se7ens]

Hello Adam, I just got done the test and I'm sorry to say, the latest washers failed.
Start up was great, it kept 5lbs consistent, up to 20lbs those felt the smoothest I've ever felt and still consistent.
Here is what got me that point:
Increasing  from 20lbs it required some effort turning the star.
Turning it just 1/16 got me up to 30lbs, the reel still felt smooth.
Turning another 1/16 got me up to around 38lbs and the plate started to heat up the same way as  other previous kits did.
I put the heat senser on it and got 95 degree, I believe on my other tests I got  very close to it, maybe 98 degree.
I decided to see if  the upper drag at 38lbs would hold up and also check if the temperature would increase, so I started pulling and retrieving.
I wanted to get go 40 pulls, but unfortunately was only able to get it to 10, that's when the drags dropped to 5lbs.
I opened the reel up and here is what I got:


First washer at the bottom got spared, most disitegrated.

The reel used is the exact same reel with same setup that generated over 50lbs on your other previous washers.

My take on these, I do not like them. There is a possibility those would fail also on smaller reels, as the Jigmaster.
I recommend for you to walk away from these.

See what others come up with their test and take it from there.

Sorry Adam, I was hoping they would do better for you.

Sal
.

[Three se7ens]

The performance is these looks promising so far, and especially how smooth they are under load.  I was concerned about the structural integrity of these because of the coarse weave of the carbon fiber.  With a failure like Sal's, these are not ready for production.  But I think Im headed in the right direction with this idea and work on addressing the strength. 

[swill88]

The performance is these looks promising so far, and especially how smooth they are under load.  I was concerned about the structural integrity of these because of the coarse weave of the carbon fiber.  With a failure like Sal's, these are not ready for production.  But I think Im headed in the right direction with this idea and work on addressing the strength. 

Bravo!

[steelfish]

... But I think Im headed in the right direction with this idea and work on addressing the strength. 

that the actitude amigo, keep going...and you will get there

[Alto Mare]

The performance is these looks promising so far, and especially how smooth they are under load.  I was concerned about the structural integrity of these because of the coarse weave of the carbon fiber.  With a failure like Sal's, these are not ready for production.  But I think Im headed in the right direction with this idea and work on addressing the strength. 

Adam, on my message to you I said for you to walk away from these, I meant for you to do so at this stage.
I didn't want you to invest too much money in those.
You are absolutely correct on performance, as I've mentioned earlier these washers are the smoothest I've ever tried.
The challenge now would be trying keeping them together while at high drag range.


Sal

[Three se7ens]

The performance is these looks promising so far, and especially how smooth they are under load.  I was concerned about the structural integrity of these because of the coarse weave of the carbon fiber.  With a failure like Sal's, these are not ready for production.  But I think Im headed in the right direction with this idea and work on addressing the strength. 

Adam, on my message to you I said for you to walk away from these, I meant for you to do so at this stage.
I didn't want you to invest too much money in those.
You are absolutely correct on performance, as I've mentioned earlier these washers are the smoothest I've ever tried.
The challenge now would be trying keeping them together while at high drag range.


Sal

I didnt have much money into it, and I still have a 6" x 8" piece of a really neat material to play with.  I have some ideas, but I dont want to clutter this thread. 

What got me was how the drag was still smooth while slipping so slowly that you can barely see the spool move.  Startup was practically non-existant.  Theoretically, the friction should increase as the temperature increases, until you get to around 1200 degrees, where it will start to stabilize.  So long runs that would glaze(and permanently damage) traditional drag materials would be a non-issue unless there was a mechanical failure. 

Btw, that is one of the most spectacular drag failures Ive ever seen.  How did the metal parts fare?

My supplier is looking into getting me a sample of another version of this material thats much better suited to complex shapes.  Its specifically designed to address the issues Sal saw with the woven fibers coming apart. 

[wallacewt]

a large single washer glued in may work
like tld 25

[Alto Mare]

Btw, that is one of the most spectacular drag failures Ive ever seen.  How did the metal parts fare?

I've seen it before on some others that were just as brittle, the metal washers look the same as when I put them in.
This test didn't take much force, I actually had a hard time taking it to 38lbs.
Keep in mind I've tested your previous washers to over 50lbs with no issues.
Star on these almost locks up at 20lbs, I could use one finger on the star on some other washers and still get 40+ lbs.

With that said, these latest are the smoothest washers I've ever tried and don't blame you for wanting to explore further, that's how good things happen.

Thank you Adam for your hard work, I know it isn't easy.
Your effort is really appreciated and have no doubts you will come up with something amazingfor all of us to enjoy.


Sal

[handi2]

After taking mine out I did break one when i bent it just a little. Then it started to crumble. The material looks like it was meant to be used with epoxy in construction of parts.

It is not flexible at all. But it is very smooth.

[jurelometer]

Interesting...

Assuming that the weave being pulled apart can be resolved...

Some manufacturers of thrust bearing/ clutch materials provide a pressure (PSI), velocity (SFM) and combo (PV) rating for  the various materials.  The requirements for a given reel can be measured / calculated fairly easily.   When playing with some  reel  drag designs, I made a spreadsheet (not documented well enough to share, but preserving the formulas).

I would suspect that the CF composites probably have a pressure rating.  If so we can calculate the requirement for a given reel/drag setting, and see if the supplier has a suitable alternative worth testing.

Less likely that there is a velocity rating, but if there is, the requirement can be easily calculated as well.

The other potential factors (after dealing with weave failure)  that I can think of  are lateral (radial?) failure from the ears striking the sides of the insert ( seems unlikely), or uneven pressure on the surfaces.    An interesting test would be to set/ release the drag a couple times,  disassemble the reel before using the drag and see if the CF is already damaged.

Or you can just try some other materials and see if they work . Could be faster and more effective...

Something with some compressibility would be nice, as these star drag setups are not very exact/level- but not sure if this is available with materials as stiff/ brittle as high temp resins and pure carbon fibers.

One other thought:  If these materials were supported to be used in a friction clutch type environment, it might be assumed that they would affixed to a backing plate, and not free floating.  This might also address the unweaving problem.  Maybe something else to ask the supplier?  Probably too much of a pain/expense to sandwich around a thin stainless washer with a high temp adhesive...

If  doing the P or V calculations provides some value, PM me.  I would be happy to assist.

[mo65]

   Sal...it looks like you tested these dry. I wonder if they'd hold together greased?

[Alto Mare]

   Sal...it looks like you tested these dry. I wonder if they'd hold together greased?

Yes I did Mo, they would have failed just the same with grease. I belive Keith tested his with grease and was able to move his star a little more than me, but not by much.

[Alto Mare]

Interesting...


I would suspect that the CF composites probably have a pressure rating.  If so we can calculate the requirement for a given reel/drag setting, and see if the supplier has a suitable alternative worth testing.

Less likely that there is a velocity rating, but if there is, the requirement can be easily calculated as well.

The other potential factors (after dealing with weave failure)  that I can think of  are lateral (radial?) failure from the ears striking the sides of the insert ( seems unlikely), or uneven pressure on the surfaces.    An interesting test would be to set/ release the drag a couple times,  disassemble the reel before using the drag and see if the CF is already damaged.

Dave, ears did fail on these.
Washers appeared to be intact, when I removed the metal keyed washers the carbon fiber washers came out in pieces.
The material is brittle, if you move it gently up and down a few times it will fall apart in pieces.

[Dominick]

Let me throw out something.  How about coating the sheet with fiberglass epoxy?  The stuff used to coat fiberglass cloth when making fiberglass repairs.  Dominick

[RowdyW]

Dominick, that resin can't take high temperatures. I've seen it blister & crack just from the sun.              Rudy