Yet Another Abu 6501-C3 AR Dog Pawl Inquiry

Started by featherb8s, January 19, 2017, 06:21:59 PM

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featherb8s

A friend gifted me a (010304 reel foot identifier) Ambassadeur 6501-C3.

Using it - and then tearing it down - revealed a heavily damaged AR dog pawl (pn 22089).  (I think the reel might have pulled on too many sturgeon in it's lifetime  ;D ) Not only that, but the press fit pin in the brake plate that the AR dog rotates on is loose and the brake plate shows a small bulge at the press-fit hole for the pin.  But that's solvable, as the Non-IAR Brake Plate (pn 22075) assembly is still available ( here, here, and here)

I can't find the 22089 part online - does anyone have some more suggestions where to look?  (I've checked ereplacementparts, rodandreelpartsonline, and blakdogtackle).  Some of the sites have a cryptic reference to an AR conversion kit, but it is also "NLA" - No Longer Available as well.

I did find a post in this forum (by moderator Fred {foakes}) that actually showed a reel teardown in progress with the same AR dog part.  (See third picture in that post, right middle side of tray).  So I know there's at least one other one in existence  ;D

I think - pending some more research - that the 0103xx series of the 650x-C3 Ambassadeur occurred just before Abu converted that reel to use the IAR needle bearing.  Mine has the 8x14x4 (mm) non-IAR bearing on the handle axle (also seized up  ::) and in need of replacement, but that part is also available)  So, as a less desirable approach, I suppose an IAR conversion is possible, but to me it seems that the side plate design (see pictures below) is not sturdy enough.  (The bearing sits in a press-fit boss).

Anyhow, some pictures for reference.  Thanks in advance for any pointers or commentary.

tim


Fig 1 : Top View of AR Dog Pawl pn 22089

The distance from the center axis of the hole to the edge of the dog pawl is ~ 29/64" [11.5 mm].  The pin in the brake plate that the dog pawl rotates on has a diameter of 0.117" [ 3mm minus 0.001" ]


Fig 2 : Bottom View of AR Dog Pawl pn 22089  (note it is tilted, so don't pull dimensions from this picture)

Note that there is a flange on the bottom of the dog to adjust it's height above the flange on the pin that it rotates upon.  Estimated thickness of the (brass?) flange is 0.066" [1.67mm].  See also Fig 3.

(the heavy damage to the dog tooth is quite evident, but not the point of this shot)


Fig 3 : Side View of AR Dog Pawl pn 22089

I suppose the length of the brass flange/collar is simply to provide strength and prevent off-axis twist of the dog under load.  (The dog is prevented from slipping off the pin by the spring/friction "ear" being trapped under the main gear)

The entire dog seems to be bent as well (although without a 2nd new/less abused sample I can't be certain that it wasn't manufactured that way with a small bend).  Not sure


Fig 4:  Time for this old dog to retire  :'(


Fig 5 :  Non-IAR Brake Plate showing (loose) AR dog pin.

Pin diameter 0.117" [ 3mm minus 0.001" ], the height of the flange on the pin estimated to be 0.041" [1.04mm] above the surface of the brake plate.


Concerning the possibility of an IAR retrofit, here's the (left) sideplate cover showing the 14mm bearing boss housing (press fit into aluminum cover)


Fig 6 : (Left) side plate cover, outside


Fig 7 : (Left) side plate cover, inside

I've seen commentary elsewhere suggesting that IAR retrofit is a bad idea for certain revisions of the C3 - in this case, the idea of press-fitting something into a press-fit boss in a thin aluminum plate (or just cementing it in place) might not be a great idea (although the reel will never pull on a sturgeon again, it might have to pull on a shovelnose).

Opinions and commentary are welcome.


PS: One other question, not central to this inquiry:  I've seen sites that sell the IAR needle bearing replacements, and conspicuously absent from their compatibility lists are left hand reels.  Is there some reason why those needle bearings can not be flipped around for a LH reel?  That would suggest that there is some asymmetry (not the length) that prevents the use of the needle bearing in a "flipped around" configuration. 

mo65

   Wow! That dog is hit! :o How does the ratchet look?
~YOU CAN TUNA GEETAR...BUT YOU CAN'T TUNA FEESH~


featherb8s

Quote from: mo65 on January 19, 2017, 06:30:32 PM
   Wow! That dog is hit! :o How does the ratchet look?

Oh man.  I hadn't even looked as I hadn't cleaned it yet.  It's bad.   :'(   :'(

Maybe this reel is just destined to be parted out.  Hard to imagine spending $50-60 in parts on a $100 reel.  Other than the nostalgia factor.

tim

mo65

Quote from: featherb8s on January 19, 2017, 06:54:43 PM
Oh man.  I hadn't even looked as I hadn't cleaned it yet.  It's bad.   :'(   :'(

   Yep...I figured as much...darn it. :(
~YOU CAN TUNA GEETAR...BUT YOU CAN'T TUNA FEESH~


alantani

that's the single leaf dog i was talking about.  i just replace them with a double leaf dog and it works fine.  send me a pm with your mailing address and i will mail one out to you. 
send me an email at alantani@yahoo.com for questions!

oc1

If they put a normal spring in there then the dog would fully seat itself every click and the tip would not get chewed up.  I'm sure the ABU leaf/friction dog worked great in the prototype and testing, but they don't work well in the real world of grease and grime and moisture.  To make matters worse, some other companies copied the ABU design.
-steve

featherb8s

Quote from: alantani on January 20, 2017, 06:03:06 AM
that's the single leaf dog i was talking about.  i just replace them with a double leaf dog and it works fine.  send me a pm with your mailing address and i will mail one out to you. 

Thank you Alan, that is very generous of you. I'll send you a PM.

I see a number of posts (primarily by Ken_D, eg here) indicating that the conversion should add a spacer washer in the drive stack to accommodate the dual leaves; is that consistent with your experience?

tim

featherb8s

Well, here's some more pictures and some commentary on my present line of thinking about how to effect a repair.

Alan graciously sent me a new, dual-leaf dog.  But on close inspection, I think there are some issues.

Tonight I went over to a friend's house; he has the beginnings of a professional grade machine shop (and he's a mechanical engineer).  Most importantly -  precision measurement instruments, gauge-pin sets, drill press with machist vise, precision flats, scrap plate stock,  and an arbor press.

I'll start with the least significant issue, and work my way towards the more problematic.


The space between the pinion gear and the AR cog gear normally has a full-diameter drag washer, as shown here: 


Fig 8.  Single-leaf dog showing (Carbontex) drag washer - full size


Fig 9.  Dual-leaf dog clasping the cog gear

So, a smaller diameter drag washer is needed in the stack here to prevent collision of the outer edge of the drag washer with the "upper" leaf.  I can either trim what I have, or order a smaller OD part.  (The drag washer thickness that I have is 0.019" - that seems plenty thick to avoid entrapment of the upper leaf between the cog gear and the pinion drive gear)


Fig 10.  Single-leaf dog gear as would be seen from installed position (as if viewing through brake plate)

The wear pattern on the original single-leaf AR dog gear indicates that the star washer/spring rubs harmlessly across the leaf.   Seems unusual, but that's what the exploded parts diagram shows: fingers of the star washer/spring towards the cog gear.


Fig 11.  Dual-leaf dog gear as would be seen from installed position (as if viewing through brake plate)

I think I've seen Fred (@foakes) suggest in other threads that for the dual-leaf AR dog retrofit, the star washer/spring should have it's fingers clippped back to avoid interference with the lower leaf.  The shape is certainly different, but the leaf of the dual-leaf design doesn't really overlap into the diameter of the gears any further than the single-leaf gear.  Maybe it is more "catchy" because of it's shape?  I don't know.



Fig 12.  Bulge in brake plate near press-fit hole for the AR dog pivot pin.

As I mentioned earlier, the heavy damage in the AR components not only affects the AR dog pawl, but also the teeth of the cog gear.  Very likely this was exacerbated by the AR dog pivot pin becoming loose in the brake plate.  That loose pin no doubt allowed the dog pawl to slip off the side of the cog gear, and in doing so probably bent the pawl, reduced the friction between the pawl ear and the cog gear, and further loosened the press-fit pin.


Fig 13.  Here you can see the installed height of the AR dog pawl on the pin.  Note the brass boss/collar provides the correct alignment height above the pin flange to position the AR dog so it is aligned to the height of the cog gear.


Fig 14.  Same perspective here, but with the single-ear AR dog pawl removed.

Uh-oh.  Look where that groove is.  Can you guess what is coming down the pike?


Fig 15.  Same perspective as Figs 13,14, but with the dual-leaf AR dog pawl at the correct height for cog gear engagement.

Multiple Problems:

- (Major) The correct height of the pawl on the pin is right on top of the groove in the pin, making the fit of the dog pawl horrible
- (Minor) A bushing on the pin between it's flange and the dual-leaf AR dog would be useful to prevent excessive stress on the dual leaves if a twisting moment occurs on the pawl.  (The leaves in principle should hold it at the correct height, but some support at the pin seems like a good idea)
- (Minor) Brass-on-Brass contact has been replaced by the more galvanic brass-on-steel contact.

My friend commented that he couldn't understand why there is a groove on that pin.  It's almost as if Abu Garcia's designer was explicitly trying to discourage this exact retrofit, as it doesn't seem to serve any mechanical purpose with the original AR dog pawl with the long brass boss

So, what we did was:


Fig 16.  AR Dog Pawl pin removed from brake plate.

- removed the pin from the brake plate & made precise measurements.  The upper portion of the pin is 0.117" diam  (3mm pin less 0.001")
- used gauge pins to measure the ID of the dual-leaf dog: 0.1195"
- mashed the bare hole of the brake plate with the arbor press between flat plates to deburr the edge
- cleaned everything up
- diamond file on the old (single leaf) AR dog pawl
- applied Loctite 603 in the press-fit hole and on the AR dog pawl pin
- drove the pin back into the brake plate.

The shape of the press-fit portion of the pin is a little bit odd; it appears to have a very small fillet on it's lip, and (strangely) even with that little fillet it is a smaller diameter than the upper portion of the pin body - 0.1138".   Overall pin length: 0.345"

My friend suggested that a common rule of thumb for non-flanged (straight) press-fit pins is that the insertion depth into the press-fit hole is 1:1 with the pin diameter.  In this case, the press fit pin is 0.114" diam, and the brake plate thickness is only 0.050".  Thus explaining the very large flange on the press-fit pin.   (Flange diameter 0.1973"; height 0.043")

So; until such a time as I can find/machine a replacement pin (e.g. something like a Misumi SJPJB3-3 "3mm Shouldered Locating Pin" - about $11) I think my only option is to see if the Loctite 603 hack works with the original AR single-leaf dog.  (I am going to replace the drive gear because of the damage to the teeth on the cog gear in any event)

I am wondering however - for those of you that might have some non-IAR Abu brake plates lying around:

Is that groove on the pin somehow a design feature that only appears in the 0103xx reel foot series? 

I suppose it is possible that a (left hand) brake plate from a (earlier?) non-IAR 6501 might have a pin without that groove.  I can't tell from the exploded parts diagram (no visible detail for the pin).


tim


comments welcomed.


Robert Janssen

The pin is deformed at the end from having been swaged into place in the brake plate. Do that again so it stays put. Press fitting a 3 mm pin into a 1.25 mm plate (aluminum??) is a bit dodgy.

If you need a new pin, just gimme a shout. That is just a quick lathe job.

.


handi2

Dawn at Smooth Drag has the A/R bearings but you would need the inner sleeve. As you mentioned you just put the A/R bearing in the way you want it to go. Both ends of the bearing are the same.
OCD Reel Service & Repair
Gulf Breeze, FL

featherb8s

Quote from: Robert Janssen on January 31, 2017, 06:01:29 PM
The pin is deformed at the end from having been swaged into place in the brake plate. Do that again so it stays put. Press fitting a 3 mm pin into a 1.25 mm plate (aluminum??) is a bit dodgy.

If you need a new pin, just gimme a shout. That is just a quick lathe job.

Thank you for the generous offer.  I think the route I might take is to buy a Misumi shoulder pin in a stock configuration (inexpensive) and have my friend turn the shoulder back to desired height, and then cut the press fit end below the shoulder back to 1.25mm.  Should save some time to do that.  I agree that the 1.25mm plate design seems dodgy.  I think that reel can do about 6.25 in-lb of torque at the spool at max drag, which works out to max static sideways loads on the AR dog pin of 65-75 lbs.  (5.3 ratio pinion with the cog gear having a working radius of about 0.44").   In any event, I posses an actual example where the loading on the AR dog pin caused damage, so I guess the "theory" can be omitted.

I'll probably hold off a little bit and see if any more comments trickle in about the pin design on other non-IAR brakeplates (whether they are the same or a bit more compatible with the dual-leaf AR dog pawl).

Quote from: handi2 on January 31, 2017, 11:58:46 PM
Dawn at Smooth Drag has the A/R bearings but you would need the inner sleeve. As you mentioned you just put the A/R bearing in the way you want it to go. Both ends of the bearing are the same.

Thanks.  I guess the inner sleeve needs to be press fit?  I was under the impression that certain sideplates versions are not compatible, so I guess I need to search around to figure out whether the 0103xx reel foot version is compatible or not.  Is there a quick way to determine that visually? (Figs 6, 7)


tim


Robert Janssen

Quote...and then cut the press fit end below the shoulder back to 1.25mm.  Should save some time to do that.  I agree that the 1.25mm plate design seems dodgy....

No, I meant exactly what I wrote.... press fitting the pin to the plate is dodgy. The plate itself is just fine. Do not cut the press fit end to 1.25 mm. Leave it at more like 2.5 mm, because you need some material to upset or stake or swage the tail end properly. Any protruding excess material can easily be ground off later.

.