Meisselbach Tripart and another clutch

[basto]

Yes Steve. That is why so many old Penns are still with us and going strong. No aluminium.
I was surprised to see corrosion on my first gen Torque and I thought I looked after it meticulously.
cheers
Basto

[gumpie44]

Fred'
Have A Meisselbach  581 FREE SPOOL Reel, Fair Cond. Works Well, Would Be A Nice Reel But For  Drilled Foot, Peeling End Ring, Damaged Clicker Side Cap. Do You Have These Parts?
Barry

[foakes]

I will check, Barry ...

Best,

Fred

[gumpie44]

Fred
Are These Photos Adequate, Or Do You Need Something More ?
Thanks
Barry       

[gumpie44]

Fred
Are These Photos Adequate, Or Do You Need Something More ?
Thanks
Barry       

Fred'
Have A Meisselbach  581 FREE SPOOL Reel, Fair Cond. Works Well, Would Be A Nice Reel But For  Drilled Foot, Peeling End Ring, Damaged Clicker Side Cap. Do You Have These Parts?
Barry

Fred<
Have Not Heard From You...... Are These Photos OK ? Or Do I Need To Post Different Ones.
Thanks
Barry

[foakes]

Responded to you through your email that they should be close enough -- and I would attempt to match parts from my box of tri-parts -- i will probably send you a little more than you need -- because some of these are different variations.

Plus am also sending the Mitchell 510 parts with duplicates -- and the Daiwa 7250 bag of bones, parts, and bodies.

Best,

Fred

[gumpie44]

Fred
Thanks For the Fast Reply, Had Some Computer Issues Last Couple Of Weeks.... My Anti- Virus Software Probably Deleted You, Will Advise When Parts Arrive......Need Your Address Again, That's Gone As Well. Sorry For the Mix-up.
Thanks
Barry

[oc1]

I came across this Horton Simplex Free Spool.  It is an economy model.  Don't know the exact vintage, but suspect it is mid 1930's.

http://www.raingarden.us/snap/HSa.jpg

It's a tube reel so the frame is similar to the Meisselbach Tripart and Takapart, or the Horton/Meek Blue Grass 33 and 34.  It has a thumb rest that looks as thought it may have been an accessory because it is easily removed and not german silver like the rest of the frame.

http://www.raingarden.us/snap/HSb.jpg

[url=http://www.raingarden.us/snap/HSe.jpg]http://www.raingarden.us/snap/HSe.jpg

The tail plate is reverse threaded onto the tube and is marked "screw off -->".  They would word it differently today.  There is no spool tension knob.  The clicker cog looks like a pinion gear and it's all chewed up in this example.


[url=http://www.raingarden.us/snap/HSf.jpg[/img]

The head plate does not unscrew but drops out when the nut that looks like a spool tension knob (but isn't) is removed.

[url]http://www.raingarden.us/snap/HSg.jpg]http://www.raingarden.us/snap/HSc.jpg]http://www.raingarden.us/snap/HSf.jpg[/img]

The head plate does not unscrew but drops out when the nut that looks like a spool tension knob (but isn't) is removed.

[url]http://www.raingarden.us/snap/HSg.jpg]http://www.raingarden.us/snap/HSc.jpg
http://www.raingarden.us/snap/HSe.jpg

The tail plate is reverse threaded onto the tube and is marked "screw off -->".  They would word it differently today.  There is no spool tension knob.  The clicker cog looks like a pinion gear and it's all chewed up in this example.

http://www.raingarden.us/snap/HSd.jpg
http://www.raingarden.us/snap/HSf.jpg

The head plate does not unscrew but drops out when the nut that looks like a spool tension knob (but isn't) is removed.

http://www.raingarden.us/snap/HSg.jpg
http://www.raingarden.us/snap/HSf.jpg

The head plate does not unscrew but drops out when the nut that looks like a spool tension knob (but isn't) is removed.

http://www.raingarden.us/snap/HSg.jpg
http://www.raingarden.us/snap/HSe.jpg

The tail plate is reverse threaded onto the tube and is marked "screw off -->".  They would word it differently today.  There is no spool tension knob.  The clicker cog looks like a pinion gear and it's all chewed up in this example.

http://www.raingarden.us/snap/HSd.jpg
http://www.raingarden.us/snap/HSf.jpg

The head plate does not unscrew but drops out when the nut that looks like a spool tension knob (but isn't) is removed.

http://www.raingarden.us/snap/HSg.jpg
http://www.raingarden.us/snap/HSh.jpg
http://www.raingarden.us/snap/HSi.jpg

Note the three brass nuts at 10:00, 2:00 and 6:00 in the photo.  Under each brass nut is a small spring spacer that allows the black steel three-ear bracket on the other side (under the spool) to float.  I'm not sure, but think this prevents the clutch mechanism under the steel bracket from binding.  Also note the small cog with three teeth at the base of the spool shaft.  When the clutch is engaged the spool is turned by grabbing this cog.

http://www.raingarden.us/snap/HSj.jpg

To expose the clutch the black steel bracket is removed.  Under the bracket is a silver colored ring,  The ring has a cut-out and a small projection .  Under the ring is the pinion gear.  I didn't get a good photo of the pinion but it too has a cut-out on one end.

This next photo shows the ring placed on the spool shaft cog.  I used a piece of brass wire to point to the spot on the ring that makes contact with the cog.

http://www.raingarden.us/snap/HSk.jpg

The small projection inside the ring fits into the cut-out on the end of the pinion gear.  When the clutch is engaged the main gear turns the pinion, the pinion turns the ring, and the ring turns the cog on the spool shaft.

This next photo shows the pinion and ring on the spool shaft cog when the clutch is engaged.  The pinion, ring and spool would be turning counter clockwise in the photo.  Note that the ring is not centered around the pinion, but rather it is offset a bit.  When the pinion turns counter clockwise it pushes the ring to one side.  When the ring is pushed to one side it makes contact with the spool shaft cog.

http://www.raingarden.us/snap/HSm.jpg

When the handle is turned backward or when line is playing off the spool, the pinion pulls the ring in the other direction.  When the ring is pulled to the other side, the lip on the ring cut-out can not make contact with the spool shaft cogs.

http://www.raingarden.us/snap/HSl.jpg

Who comes up with this stuff?  If I didn't have the reel in hand I would swear it could not work reliably.... but it does.  Based on the wear, it seems that the weak link may be the spot where the pinion cut-out makes contact with the projection on the ring.  It's a little chewed up but still works.

Also, I would have guessed that the free spool would not be very free because the spool shaft is contacting the pinion.  It's the same problem the Meisselbach Tripart free spool reel has.  

There are no spool tension knobs and no casting drag mechanism.  There is several thousandths of lateral play in the spool.  The bearing blocks have flat bottoms and the spool shaft ends are cut flat.  

But, surprisingly, it has tons of free spool for a reel of this vintage.  It is much to hot for me to be able to cast without filling it up with magnets first.  I'll try it, but doubt it will make me give up the Koph clutch reels.
-steve

[mhc]

Thanks Steve, you keep digging up interesting old reels with examples of alternative engineering solutions that baffle me! 
Great photos and write up.
Mike

[oc1]

I wanted to fish with this reel but the line capacity is more than needed so a wood arbor (spool filler) was made.  I've tried and failed to make these before.
http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=20986.30

The book Sid found (Lucas on Bass Fishing) helped.  Lucas says you have to make three of these before it comes out right.  He also says to use the reel itself as a lathe to do the final shaping.

I didn't have any dense cork or balsa wood and used a piece of dry hau bush.  Hau is not as light as balsa, but close.
http://www.raingarden.us/snap/HSn.jpg

Hau has a soft pith and this is where the axis must be.  Should have found a rounder piece of branch.
http://www.raingarden.us/snap/HSo.jpg

The wood was mounted on a bolt.  It was spun in a drill while holding the wood against a running belt sander until it was round.
http://www.raingarden.us/snap/HSp.jpg
http://www.raingarden.us/snap/HSq.jpg

The wood was split in half with a knife.  A thin kerf saw might be better.
http://www.raingarden.us/snap/HSr.jpg
http://www.raingarden.us/snap/HSs.jpg

The ends were shaped to match the spool flanges using a small dremel-like sanding drum.  One half was held on the spool while a small hole was drilled using the hole in the metal spool as a guide.  The other half was held in place and drilled from the other direction.  A piece of brass wire was pressed into the hole to pin the arbor to the spool.
http://www.raingarden.us/snap/HSt.jpg
http://www.raingarden.us/snap/HSu.jpg
http://www.raingarden.us/snap/HSv.jpg

Everything was glued and bound with line until dry.
http://www.raingarden.us/snap/HSw.jpg
http://www.raingarden.us/snap/HSx.jpg

The spool was put back into the reel, the reel put on a rod and the rod stabilized in a vice.  As the handle was turned, some 400 grit dry paper was used to do the final shaping and smoothing.  The handle can be ranked at close to 250 rpm so with quadruple multiplying gears that's close to 1000 rpm at the spool                    
http://www.raingarden.us/snap/HSy.jpg

This left room for 120 yards of 30# spectra.  The arbor worked out good enough and the reel casts well.  Actually, it casts surprisingly well considering all the stuff inside.  The distance is every bit as good as the Shakespeare Tournament Free Spool with Koph cutch.  I need to rethink the idea that the pinion riding on the spool shaft slows it down.  It's also possible that the alignment and tolerances on this reel is better.  The frame is very heavy and stout compared to the Shakespeare.

The Horton Simplex has a smaller diameter than the Shakespeare Tournament but the spool is wider and the tail plate is wider.  So, it does not palm quite as well and it is more difficult to lay the line.
http://www.raingarden.us/snap/HSza.jpg

http://www.raingarden.us/snap/HSzb.jpg

The Horton clutch takes some getting used to.  When a running fish takes the handle away from you it slips out of gear instead of doing the knuckle buster thing.  When the fish slows and you want to start cranking again you have to be careful the spool has stopped before it goes back into gear.

The quick take-apart is nice, but the head plate has to be completely disassembled to access the gears.  This could cause some maintenance headaches.  In the photo below, you can see a small gap between the tube frame and the screw-off tail plate.  Somehow I accidentally unscrewed the tail plate a half turn while messing with the fish.  The reel is nice, but I still reach for the Shakespeare first.
http://www.raingarden.us/snap/HSzc.jpg
-steve

[Donnyboat]

Steve that is great work, your mind & brain, just never stops, thanks for showing, what did you use to stick the wood together, as I posted not long back, I have a product, that is sold in Queensland, Australia, called Techni glue, R60, although they may have an update on it now, it is good for that type of thing, as it does not run, cheers Don.

[oc1]

There's no glue involved Don.  It's just a piece of Calcutta cane with a Chinese cane tip section lashed on the end with twine.  It worked in the nineteenth century and still works in the twenty-first century.
Regards,
-steve

[sdlehr]

I thought Donny was asking about the wood arbor you made....??
Glad to see the Lucas book was put to good use. I'm about half-way through, on a temporary hold. That was an excellent first attempt on that spool arbor.

Sid

[oc1]

Oh sorry, I get it now.  The glue was just Titebond III.  One part, no vapors, water clean-up, essentially waterproof when dry.

That was the third or fourth attempt at an arbor Sid.  I think I have it now though.  Also, Lucas (1949) says the arbor does not need to be glued.  Just make it a tight fit and let the line compression hold it in place.  But, Lucas would have been using braided nylon which has a lot of stretch and compression.  I'm using spectra with little stretch and compression.  The brass pin was just extra assurance against slippage.

I had to remove a lop-sided failed attempt that had been glued and pinned the same way.  It came out in pieces but was not difficult and did not damage the spool.
-steve

[Paul Roberts]

Great write-up, and thread. Thanks for this. I too fell for the Meisselbach's and was disappointed in their performance. Pretty rough they are mechanically, although very beautiful reels. I'm keeping mine (480 and 581) and may find a fishing use for them yet, if anything just bc they are pretty little reels and mechanical marvels in their own right.

The Meisselbach clutch appears to be seen again in the (very popular) JA Coxe 25's (See photo, bottom right). It's a bit loosey-goosey when fished with, easy to backlash when fighting a fish bc it's so easy for the clutch to disengage. Advice is... Keep your thumb where it belongs!

Not sure if others cannot see the above images in this thread. I found by copy/pasting into a doc they show.