Penn 9/0 Side Plates

Started by Cortez_Conversions, June 06, 2017, 01:16:38 PM

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sdlehr

#120
Quote from: mikeysm on January 23, 2019, 08:30:00 AM
Here is a picture with Alan's second generation gear sleeve. With the ten tooth sleeve it will be different


Mike
Mike, I presume you included the last sentence because in the photo the dogs will be alternating and we're not sure how it'll work with 2 more teeth on the sleeve ratchet gear? Maybe I shouldn't presume, but I'm not sure it'll still be alternating. Have we a rule, something like, "If it alternates with an even number of teeth it'll alternate with all numbers that are even"? I don't have enough gear sleeves to experiment, and although I bet someone could prove it mathematically, I'm not going to spend a lot of my time trying. My hunch is that this is true.
Sid Lehr
Veterinarian, fishing enthusiast, custom rod builder, reel collector

mikeysm

Quote from: Alto Mare on January 23, 2019, 05:02:26 PM
Mike, yes I have a few pics, but those are with a stock plate.
Looking at your pic, I think there might be a better more effective way of setting that spring in, not that there is anything wrong with the way you're showing yours.
I won't be able to check until I receive my set, it is still on the way here.
I did not have much to do with this one, someone else was involved with the layout for customizing the double dog.
Let's keep in mind, Tom is doing all of us a favor, he did not have to do this for us.

Sal

Sal I just stuck it in as a example. I will change it when i get another spring. It wont stay in place the way it is. As for ten teeth I wont know if it will change until I try one.


Mike

RowdyW

#122
Quote from: sdlehr on January 23, 2019, 06:06:06 PM
Quote from: mikeysm on January 23, 2019, 08:30:00 AM
Here is a picture with Alan's second generation gear sleeve. With the ten tooth sleeve it will be different


Mike
Mike, I presume you included the last sentence because in the photo the dogs will be alternating and we're not sure how it'll work with 2 more teeth on the sleeve ratchet gear? Maybe I shouldn't presume, but I'm not sure it'll still be alternating. Have we a rule, something like, "If it alternates with an even number of teeth it'll alternate with all numbers that are even"? I don't have enough gear sleeves to experiment, and although I bet someone could prove it mathematically, I'm not going to spend a lot of my time trying. My hunch is that this is true.
With 8 teeth there will be a tooth every 45*, with 10 teeth there will be a tooth every 36*. Therefore the length of one of the dogs would have to be altered to maintain alternating dogs when switching a sleeve with a different number of teeth.          Rudy

sdlehr

#123
Rudy, I think that's an oversimplification of the problem. When you add two more teeth you change the way both dogs contact the teeth, not just one. And they should both be affected to the same degree, no? With more teeth they'll travel a litter farther from the axis of rotation, but still maintain contact with each tooth to the same degree (not the same degree as before, that changes - each of the dogs contacts as much of each of the opposite teeth - I'm trying to say it's symmetrical). I think that as long as the dogs pivot the same distance from the axis of rotation the simultaneous (or alternating, take your pick) actuation of the dogs should be maintained. This is probably the wrong place to have this discussion and I'll try to find time to make it a thread of its own later.
Sid Lehr
Veterinarian, fishing enthusiast, custom rod builder, reel collector

RowdyW

#124
Sid, if you look at the photos you will see that the piviot for the dogs is not 180* apart which throws a wrench into the monkey works.  :D :D

sdlehr

Quote from: RowdyW on January 23, 2019, 09:52:34 PM
Sid, if you look at the photos you will see that the pivot for the dogs is not 180* apart which throws a wrench into the monkey works.  :D :D
That throws a wrench into the monkey works the way you were trying to solve the problem (which was part of the oversimplification, too). I think in my explanation the pivots don't have to be 180* apart, they just have to be the same distance from the axis of rotation, and the dogs have to be the same length.
Sid Lehr
Veterinarian, fishing enthusiast, custom rod builder, reel collector

RowdyW

Have you ever looked at the double dog 113h bridges from Black Pearl? He sells it with a 10 tooth sleeve which gives alternating dogs. By switching to a 8 tooth sleeve it becomes simaltanious dogs with the same dogs.

steelhead_killer

Is that spring going to stay put?

Quote from: mikeysm on January 23, 2019, 03:56:01 PM
There are already pictures Sal posted awhile ago. You need to search for the post. Tom made the slot for the spring and removed the material so all we need to do is make a spring.


Mike
><)))">

sdlehr

Quote from: RowdyW on January 23, 2019, 10:17:20 PM
Have you ever looked at the double dog 113h bridges from Black Pearl? He sells it with a 10 tooth sleeve which gives alternating dogs. By switching to a 8 tooth sleeve it becomes simaltanious dogs with the same dogs.
Well, that sure blows my theory out of the water..... I'll have to find that picture, that may help me understand what was wrong with the way I'm thinking about this.
Sid Lehr
Veterinarian, fishing enthusiast, custom rod builder, reel collector

Alto Mare

Quote from: mikeysm on January 23, 2019, 08:23:15 PM
Quote from: Alto Mare on January 23, 2019, 05:02:26 PM
Mike, yes I have a few pics, but those are with a stock plate.
Looking at your pic, I think there might be a better more effective way of setting that spring in, not that there is anything wrong with the way you're showing yours.
I won't be able to check until I receive my set, it is still on the way here.
I did not have much to do with this one, someone else was involved with the layout for customizing the double dog.
Let's keep in mind, Tom is doing all of us a favor, he did not have to do this for us.

Sal

Sal I just stuck it in as a example. I will change it when i get another spring. It wont stay in place the way it is. As for ten teeth I wont know if it will change until I try one.


Mike
No Mike, I wasn't talking about the spring, I meant there might be another position for that spring. But, from taking another look at your pic, it might now work, I will need to check when I get my set.

Thanks Mike.

Sal
Forget about all the reasons why something may not work. You only need to find one good reason why it will.

sdlehr

Quote from: RowdyW on January 23, 2019, 10:17:20 PM
Have you ever looked at the double dog 113h bridges from Black Pearl?
Those dogs are not the same length, and the pivots are not the same distance from the axis of rotation.... these are not the conditions I was speaking of.
Sid Lehr
Veterinarian, fishing enthusiast, custom rod builder, reel collector

Alto Mare

Quote from: sdlehr on January 23, 2019, 10:38:51 PM
Quote from: RowdyW on January 23, 2019, 10:17:20 PM
Have you ever looked at the double dog 113h bridges from Black Pearl?
Those dogs are not the same length, and the pivots are not the same distance from the axis of rotation.... these are not the conditions I was speaking of.

Sid, check here, the very first Senator with double dogs that was ever made. Most have forgotten about it ...the rest of the double dog upgrades just followed from this one:
http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=3077.msg19705#msg19705
There are lots of pics on dogs and springs, some even have mixed dogs, as one for the 9/0 and the other for the 6/0.
Keep in mind, this was done a long time ago, I now shape the dog at the tip and at its side to keep it closer to the ratchet for a better contact.

Sal
Forget about all the reasons why something may not work. You only need to find one good reason why it will.

xjchad

The spring would work that way if there was a small bend on the end of it

Husband, Father, Fisherman

sdlehr

Quote from: Alto Mare on January 23, 2019, 10:48:16 PM
There are lots of pics on dogs and springs, some even have mixed dogs, as one for the 9/0 and the other for the 6/0.
Keep in mind, this was done a long time ago, I now shape the dog at the tip and at its side to keep it closer to the ratchet for a better contact.

Sal
Thanks, Sal, but looking at those pictures I just saw different variations of dogs with the same sleeve. I think the easiest way to solve this is for Mike to report back and show pics with the 10-tooth sleeve and we can see if the dogs remain alternating..... in the end I think that'll either prove or disprove my point.....
Sid Lehr
Veterinarian, fishing enthusiast, custom rod builder, reel collector

Alto Mare

#134
That's what I was trying to show you Sid. Rudy mentioned it already, it really doesn't matter on the gear ratchet, yes it would help and might even get lucky by changing from 8 tooth-9 tooth, or 10 tooth. The fact is that you'll be able to make it as you would want it by trimming one dog or both, in some cases even longer dog when fine tuning.
Your theory is also correct if you're trying to make one part kit, but there are different variations.
That would be the part that I leave to you, maybe Tom, or Doc. I do things by actual test, no math🙂

Sal
Forget about all the reasons why something may not work. You only need to find one good reason why it will.