Boca Bearings? What's your take?

[bhale1]

Jim,
Very interesting thread(topic), glad your still persuing it! But, more importantly, hope your recovering from the little mishap with the ladder😁
Brett

[Jim Dempsey]

Thank you. I've never been so eager to conduct a test on anything else that I can think of. So many variables - so many possibilities.

But; the fall took a lot more out of me than I'd have ever predicted. I suspect that some of it is neurological in my right arm / shoulder. Some days; I'd never have known it happened (except for the visible scars); others, everything is sailing along great; but when I go to make a cast, it feels like my arm was just plugged into a light socket. Ditto throwing a football to my son or shooting my compound bow. The shock of the pain makes me sink to my knees. It's unpredictable and frustrating. Hoping that it will resolve over time. It remains as unpredictable as it was 3-4 months ago. I'm no Spring chicken; but I'm still too young to have to accept this long term.

On the up side; eBay refunded my money on the HPR bearings during the night. 'Nuff said.

[Alto Mare]

Jim, wishing you a speedy recovery and thank you for doing this test.
Flushing out the many opinions is a sign of something good.
I have been checking out a couple of bearings from Boca myself for the past month. Nothing at all as you're doing , I haven't really fish with those, just bench test.
All bearings were opened, rinsed with Naphtha and rested for 5 minutes. Tested afterwards dry and also with one single drop of TSI-301.
At the very end, the ABEC-5 and ABEC-7 were cleaned again and packed with grease.

I was not impressed with the ceramic bearings, those just didn't feel right to me when comparing to the others. I tried them dry and with a drop of oil, still not impressed. Of course might give different results when casting while out in the real world.

Trying the ABEC-5 and the ABEC-7.
The ABEC-5 had the best freespool, but the ABEC-7 felt and still feels the smoothest  to me.
The people that asked for my opinion are actually going with the ABEC-7 for their reels. This wasn't based on my test, they compared all given information from others and decided to go with the ABEC-7.

Not really sure if this means anything, just wanted to put it out here.

Best,


Sal

[Swami805]

I'll be watching with interest. Much of my casting is with a live sardine or anchovy and no weight so free spool is very important. A few yards matters at times. Thanks for doing this.
Hope you heal up soon.

[Jim Dempsey]

Sal,

I've noticed several things that seemed odd - even counter intuitive - about testing the bearings. Real melon scratchers...

Placing the bearing on a "bearing checker" and free spinning them yielded varying results compared to installing them in different reels. Some of the bearings I bought had hardly any free spin time. It often varied from 11 seconds to 37 seconds from bearing to bearing, of the same size and lot. The same held true after installing them on the spool shafts and free spinning them with, or without line loaded on them. This seems to be the litmus test for people on YouTube, and it doesn't come close to simulating real world loading, spin-up time, or deceleration at the end of the cast. They frequently offered different performance gains on the same model reel. All of the "New in the box" reels of each series were fairly consistent, out of the box. Thumbs up ABU. But; being new to the sport, and having read so much interesting, yet; contradictory information about fine tuning reels, and performance gains; I had to stick my nose into it. I'm NOT a structural or mechanical engineer, so much was to be learned.

Jeff Brooks at Boca Bearings offered the greatest insight with regard to testing their product. Jeff said that he runs his buck naked, without the shields. Any type of lubricant is going to slow the performance of ceramic (hybrid) bearings. Oh; so very true! However; along with that recommendation comes what I call "The Chatter Factor". Somewhere between 1/3 and 1/2 of the bearings tested "dry" produced an unacceptable noise level. Bear in mind: I'm legally deaf! Honestly. Totally deaf in my right ear, with 45% hearing in my left (corrected with a hearing aid). 65% speech recognition. So; if the noise level is annoying to me; I consider that significant. Thus, the diluted TSI321 that I use. I chose 321 due to the thicker initial viscosity because I also use it on other moving components in the reel that aren't dependent on high speed. It also acts as a rust / oxidation inhibitor, so I also "paint" the inside of the reel, housing and components with it. I have 2 separate dispensers for each type. Word around the campfire is that 301 is the same molecular composition as 321, only diluted with some type of solvent that evaporates. The solvent is meant to act as a disbursement vehicle to more evenly distribute the lubricant, (which is Teflon based) that bonds to the surfaces on a molecular and sub-molecular level. The solvent evaporates, leaving a thin, even coat of the same lubricant as 321. In other words: It ain't coming off with water; and, it ain't going away easily. The safest way to remove it that I could find, or think of was bathing the bearings in 99% Isopropyl alcohol in my ultrasonic cleaner overnight. Others use anything from brake cleaner to lighter fluid. But; my thinking is: any petroleum distillate will leave some type of residue behind.

Bearing (no pun intended) that in mind; I wanted the best of both worlds. Quiet ceramic bearings that were uninhibited by too thick of lubricant. This took a considerable amount of time because to fairly evaluate each scenario; I had to compare the same stock bearings, same Boca bearings, and same reel. Which brings us to another variant: Manufacturing. This is where the real pickiness begins. All reels are mass manufactured. No way around it. PICKINESS ALERT! You cannot mass produce any product with Swiss precision. You can produce some very fine reels - as ABU, Penn, etc. do, but there is going to be some variation - however small it may be. When I examined the friction surfaces with a video microscope; I could still see machining artifact, and in some cases; even tool marking from mass production. Yes; that holds true for all high-end manufacturers. This is where polishing these surfaces comes into play. And; that part isn't for the faint of heart. I could write a book on the different methods I tried to obtain uniform, mirror-like surfaces, so I'll spare the bandwidth. However; once this uniformity is achieved; you're much closer to maximizing the performance gains that ceramic bearings are capable of producing. And; I say that because after trying it both ways; the ceramics consistently outperformed the stock bearings - enough to say: "Yes; there was a definite difference." How much will be revealed once I've concluded the casting trials.

So; thanks to all of you all's input; I had a full arsenal of ideas to consider.

Bottom line is: Nearly everyone's opinion on "fine tuning" produced improvement in incremental steps. And; I think that's where much of the debate stems from. Simply polishing produced about the same results as simply adding ceramic bearing, or even removing the stock lubricants and replacing them with more precision lubricants in conservative amounts. Which brings us full circle back to manufacturing.

I'm not certain how the factory lubricants are applied during the manufacturing process; but the amounts seem to vary widely. Manufacturers offer a warranty on their product, knowing that some are going to be abused or neglected. Most are not going to perform routine maintenance. So; they slather the gears and bearings with thick lubricants in hope that they'll survive the warranty period. As I mentioned earlier, and most of you already know; there's a delicate balance between a thin viscosity lubricant applied carefully, and on a regular maintenance schedule. Compare the bearings performance to running. If you're running wearing lightweight, shock absorbing shoes on a level surface; you're going to be able to run faster and further than if you were trying to run in varying depths of mud.

So; when the weather presents itself for consistent testing; I'll video tape the casting tests. I'm anxious.

Bottom line is; if you love fishing, you can use just about anything and make it work. If you want an edge on technique; you can buy expensive gear without having to do any modifications. If you are nerdy like me; you can try just about anything. Some produce little or no gain. Others, substantial gain. Collectively; WOW!

[Alto Mare]

Jim, you might want to check for longevity as well, most bearings on expensive gear will feel amazingly smooth in the beginning, that's actually the case with many new reels on the market today, but unfortunately are short lived.
Take the older Penn spinners and Dam Quick, I have a bunch of both. Those won't feel as smooth but will stay consistent for the life of the reel.
How do I know? I've been fishing with Penn spinners for 40+ years and that was before I came here and learned how to really service a reel.

This is somewhat related ...
I just recently purchased 5 large boxes of Dam Quick reel parts from a repair shop, the parts will always give you a good indication of what wears most on a reel.
I have approximately 80 stainless steel pinions with 80 bearings and only a dozen brass gears instead of 80.
This tells me bearings are pretty tough on these reels.

Sal

[Jim Dempsey]

My understanding is that most (premium) reels come from the factory with ABEC 1 (ABEC 3 on super premium) grade bearings. ABEC is nothing more than a level of precision / tolerance. You'd mentioned earlier that you felt the 5's outcast the 7's, but the 7's felt smoother. A lot of truth to that in this application. The 5's tolerances aren't as tight as the 7's - marginally, which would explain the longer spin times. There's not as much contact friction to slow them down. Honestly; I found "pot-luck-picks" as far as whether they cast further than the 7's. In the cases that I could tell a difference; it sure wasn't by much.

I like the feeling of the 7's. That is one thing I can say universally (so far). The reels cast and retreive feel much smoother and stable. I like that alot. That was by biggest surprize on the MGXtreme's. They came out of the box near perfect - in my experience; or lack therof. In fact; I never intended to swap the bearings. When I did; I thought that I'd be giving up a delicate balance of precision casting for distance casting. As I mentioned; when I was able to aclimate myself to the new bearings; I found the performance was incredible in all styles of presentation. The key was establishing a new "normal" with respect to how it performed. Once I was able to establish consistency; I liked it much better; and still can hardly believe the improvemnt that I gained on what I thought was one of the best PL reels out there.

As far as longevity; time will tell. I suspect that the greater part of that answer will have to do with how well I maintain my equipment. At the end of my last post, I mentioned that the manufacturers slather them with as heavy duty a lubricant as they can, while still obtaining good performance - knowing that most people are not going to do the maintenance that we would. Hence; the bearings and gears... Just like an engine. Treat it nice; and it will treat you nice. Abuse it, and you lose it.

[Alto Mare]

Yep, comparing the 5 to the 7, I wasn't sure how these were rated, they told me that it has to do with a tighter  tolerance on the 7. To get a tighter tolerance, as we know, parts need to be  as close to perfect as possible.  This explains the added smoothness of the 7.  As for longevity,  maintenance helps but not always.  If a bearing is of poor quality, it will fail,  regardless of how much grease it is packed in.  I service some fairly expensive reels and, after one season,  some require bearing replacement.

Sal

[oc1]

I went through a period of bearing OCD.  Much of it was reported here.  Luckily, that's over now but a few generalities stick with me.  This applies only to the spool shaft bearings on small modern baitcasting reels.  If casting distance is not the primary concern then none of this will apply.

The only way to compare bearings is to use the same rod, reel, line, weight and wind and measure the casting distance.  However, free spin time (spinning it on a mandrel) is strongly correlated with casting distance if the bearings being compared have equal mass and are all cleaned and dried the same.  Ceramic bearings will have shorter free spin time because of their lower mass but will make longer casts.

A higher ABEC rating makes an individual bearing more likely to cast well, but there is so much variability that you can find a ABEC 5 that is much better than an the average ABEC 7 and a ABEC 7 bearing that is worse than the average ABEC 5.

Lubrication shortens the free spin time and shortens the casting distance regardless of the material (stainless or ceramic) and regardless of the lubricant.  TSI 321 slows bearing down a lot and the effect is fairly long lasting.  Low viscosity lubricants do not slow the bearing down as much and the effect is short lived.  Getting water on an non-lubricated bearing has the same effect as oiling it. Water is thrown off a bearing fairly quickly so the lubricating effect is short lived.  Getting water on an oiled bearing creates an emulsion that slows it down more than oil or water alone.  The emulsion will not go away on its own and can only be removed by cleaning.  Having the bearing get wet is inevitable on small baitcasting reels.  Stainless bearings run dry perform well but I do not know about their longevity.  Ceramic bearings run dry are a little better and you do not have to worry about longevity.

Feel, smoothness and noise is not necessarily correlated with casting distance.  Bearings without lubrication feel rougher and make more noise but cast better.  However, a change in feel or noise (either for the better or worse) is usually accompanied by reduced performance.  Ceramic bearings have a rougher feel and make much more noise than stainless bearings even though they perform a little better.

-steve

[mo65]

   I've been taking all this bearing talk in, and I've dug deep into much of this too. My results almost make me wonder what the heck all this is about? First I spend $50 on a set of bearings that will spin for a week, then I have to buy a mag kit to slow the reel down. It all seems unnecessary at that point. Many of the discussed issues are great info though, and don't get me wrong, quality bearings are very important to me. Great thread Jim!

[Jim Dempsey]

There's one other factor that I hadn't mentioned because I'm not sure exactly how to make the determination. That's: Break-in period. I decided it was nice enough to toss out a line or 2 today. Also decided to take one of my Morrum's with me, since I'd only done distance tests with it - comparing them with stock - but never fished them. The MGXtreme that I did everything to has been my go-to reel during the very few times I went fishing during the Winter. I hit the mother load when I got there. Pulling them in left and right - only; most weren't quite keepers. Actually; I seldom keep any Bass. But; I nailed 12 nice sized Blue Gill's.

OK; back on topic... Towards the end of the afternoon; I realized that 1 of 2 things has happened: Either I've gotten incredibly good at casting, OR the reel was "breaking in". The feel, sound, and performance was noticeably better than I remembered it being. So; I decided to give my M5600CL a shot. That was an understatement! It wasn't new when I got it; but it was like new. I remembered a dramatic difference in the casting distance with the Boca's vs. stock. I also remember that the larger bearing that I removed was horrible. Not as far as noise, but the dwell time was only a few seconds on a mandrel. Nonetheless; that sucker cast a country mile with a 1/2 oz lure. I couldn't believe it. With a spool that size compared to my little ole MGX? I had to really slam on the brakes to keep it from birdnesting. But; with good thumb; was still able to cast further than I had with any of my other reels, thus far. Don't get me started on its other attributes.

So; I suppose everyone's experiences vary as much as our technique, equipment, and other variables. I think I'm finding my groove - slowly, but surely. May not work for you; but it's working fine for me. Vice versa in advance.

I appreciate everyone's comments, suggestion, rants, etc. Like I said; it's given me an arsenal of ideas to consider. I know this thread has gone on longer than a freight train, but I still welcome ANY input, experience, or advice. Just trying to build a better mouse trap - FOR ME! But; glad and eager to share my experiences, too.

[festus]

Good to see you back, Jim, as usual with your thought provoking posts.

[fishhawk]

Boca,hedge-hog, or whatever you choose, theyre all the same with a 30mph+ head wind.

[Gfish]

Love me a good detailed technical thread. Nerd power baby! Shoulda guessed back in H.S., at the beginning a the IC chip thing, that they'ed be rulin the world.
Jim & Sal & Steve et. al., oughta get together and design/test their way to a "closer to perfect" reel.
People that really test their theories and innovations can truly advance their art.
Jim what method do you use tho polish metal reel parts?

[Jim Dempsey]

I don't remember what they're called; but you can find them on eBay, or other sites -  sanding pads. You can buy them in varying grits up to 13,000, or a party pack. I prefer not to use them, but sometimes; the tool marks - (striations) are so pronounced that I use them with water or cutting oil until I get to a polishing point. I've never used under a 10,000 grit pad on friction surfaces. For spool ends; I wrap (roll) an end with electrical tape, and insert it into my drill, as to not further scuff it. At (reasonably) LOW speed; I rotate the spool until one end is ready for polishing. Reverse order for the other side, if necessary. After "roughing" the ends; I remove any tape and clean the metal surfaces with alcohol to remove any residue of the adhesive.

At that point; I use a Dremel tool with a foot pedal to vary the speed and use "Mother's Aluminum Wheel Polish" on a felt buffing wheel on the Dremel. KEEP YOUR SPEED LOW! Elsewise, you run the risk of overheating the shaft ends, or scorching the metal. Not the least of your problems would be slinging the polishing compound everywhere. Even the lowest setting for a Dremel (5000 RPM) is too fast. So use an old variable foot pedal, if you can find one. Don't forget the beveled ends that contact the tensioner and brake. ***Harbor Freight, etc. have Dremel clones for a song and a dance that run off a DC wall wart) *** The reason I mention that is, you can cut the end off the DC adapter and use a variable power supply to keep it at a reasonable speed - at a budget price. Bonus. You can use a 10x magnifier, but I use a cheap video microscope that plugs into my USB port and can examine my progress along the way. Once you've achieved a mirror-like finish; it's off to the brass parts - main gear, pinion, etc. if applicable.

I use a soft / medium bristled brush on the "Dremel" to polish the gear meshing's with Brasso. Ditto the above instructions on procedure. No way around it: This is generally messy. And; time consuming to obtain not only a good polish; but uniformity, as well. For the other friction surfaces of brass - IE: drag surfaces (also metal drag washer spacers) I use the same method as above - except there's no way to spin up a flat, metal drag washer. Patience, patience... It DOES pay off in the end.  For the pinion gear; I do the same for the gear meshings; but I also ordered some wooden stemmed Q-Tips that I cut in half with wire cutters. Insert into Dremel tool and polish the inner barrel of the arbor with Brasso until polished.

If you have a centrifugal brake; don't forget the contact surfaces of it, as well.

Very light oil (TSI321 - cut 50% with 99% Isopropyl alcohol {or TSI301} - less than a drop per bearing) on the ceramic or SS bearings. TSI321 on all other friction surfaces, except the gear meshings. For that; I use a 1/2 inch wide camel hair artists brush to apply Cal's tan drag grease very sparingly. Ditto; the drag washers.

"Paint" all (inner) metal frame surfaces with TSI321 as a rust / corrosion inhibitor. Ditto on the Pawl and levelwind surfaces.

Figure on about 2-3 hours - first time. About an hour after you feel comfortable. Yeah; it's painstaking and nitpicking. But; buckle your seatbelts on the first cast! Bearing in mind, of course; adjust (readjust) your tension / brake to the same standards as you always have prior to casting. Otherwise; bring some dental tools to detangle the bird nest.

*Forgot to mention cleaning all of the above parts, prior to assembly and lubrication with alcohol (or similar) in an ultrasonic cleaner - if you have one. Lots of Dwan, and a soft bristled toothbrush otherwise.*