how to disable a roller clutch bearing

[oc1]

If you wanted to change the anti-reverse from a roller clutch bearing to a dog-and-ratchet anti-reverse or a knuckle-buster you cannot just remove the roller clutch bearing and be done with it because the roller clutch bearing is also supporting the gear sleeve.  It would have to be replaced with a normal ball bearing but finding a ball bearing the same size as a roller bearing may be difficult.  Does anyone have suggestions for how to make a one-way bearing turn easily in both directions?  I never tried to open one but am willing to give it a shot.  Please don't tell me to just grease it because that is not fool proof enough.  Thanks,
-steve

[Brewcrafter]

Steve - I don't have tons of experience, but let me throw this out there - the few ARB's I have pulled apart have all been off of Penn's, so I'm not sure how this may apply to other brands.  But the ones I have dealt with all have small plastic "fingers" as part of the internal plastic cage after you slide the external metal shell off that load or wedge the individual rollers into a lock position.  Maybe 10 minutes with an X-Acto knife to trim the fingers off, and now you have a standard roller bearing once reassembled?  I look forward to wiser inputs... - John

[jurelometer]

Hi Steve,

It is unfortunate that these devices are called "bearings", as they do not work as bearings at all.  Roller clutch is probably a more accurate term.

A typical one way "bearing" has an outer "race" with little ramps built in.  When run in reverse, the rollers run up the ramps and jam themselves between the outer race and the shaft (or inner race if there is one).    So messing around with the bearing to allow it to run backward is probably going to be futile.

Secondly, in order for the rollers to catch on the ramps, something has to be free to flop around a bit (usually the outer race).   This means that a one-way bearing does not provide radial support, or at most provides only modest support with some play in it. This is why in a typical handle shaft setup, the pocket in the sideplate is a bit oversized for the one way bearing, as opposed to a ball bearing pocket, where the fit has to be tight to provide load bearing and alignment. 


While there are some different roller clutch designs used in reels, the basic concept is the same, as something has to cause the inner/outer surfaces to get closer together in reverse, causing the rollers to jam.

Here is a conceptual diagram of a one way bearing that I drew up awhile ago.   I was going to do a post on the topic until I realized that I needed to learn a bunch more first.


I would consider making a Delrin bushing to fit in the spot where the one-way bearing used to be, or if you can leave a gap there, just remove it, and see how floppy the shaft gets. 

With a bit of epoxy, you might be able to reshape the sideplate pocket to accommodate an off-the shelf bronze or plastic bushing.

I think Accurate had a reel model where they backtracked on using a one way bearing, and just dropped a nylon bushing in the spot instead. Somebody here posted a thread on pulling out the bushing and adding a one-way bearing, the opposite of what you want to do



-J

[oc1]

Thank you very much gentlemen.  That will get me started.  I hadn't thought about a plastic bushing but will likely work and is easy enough to make.
-steve

[Tiddlerbasher]

Delrin/acetate rod is available in various diameters even tubing. Finding the right outside diameter is the hardest part. If a diameter is found slightly oversize it can be spun up in a chuck and turned/sanded to fit. The inner diameter can always be drilled/reamed.

[MarkT]

Why no ARB?  Plenty of reels have both an ARB and a dog(s) where the dog is just a backup for the ARB.

[philaroman]

...It would have to be replaced with a normal ball bearing but finding a ball bearing the same size as a roller bearing may be difficult...
-steve

I've had occasion to "double up" to make things fit, LOL

i.e., make a bearing/bushing assembly where larger/outer ID matches up to smaller/inner OD

(height can be same or different, as needed)

[jurelometer]

Steve - I don't have tons of experience, but let me throw this out there - the few ARB's I have pulled apart have all been off of Penn's, so I'm not sure how this may apply to other brands.  But the ones I have dealt with all have small plastic "fingers" as part of the internal plastic cage after you slide the external metal shell off that load or wedge the individual rollers into a lock position.  Maybe 10 minutes with an X-Acto knife to trim the fingers off, and now you have a standard roller bearing once reassembled?  I look forward to wiser inputs... - John

I found a conceptual diagram of a push-to-lock spring one-way bearing at Misumi:https://us.misumi-ec.com/linked/item/10302273810/img/drw_01.gif


As you can see, removing the spring will make it more difficult for locking, but will not prevent it.

Also, a functional roller bearing requires round races on both sides with a very small, exact clearance.   Cutting the springs off will not turn a clutch into a bearing.    

Why no ARB?  Plenty of reels have both an ARB and a dog(s) where the dog is just a backup for the ARB.

The advantage for a one-way bearing-dog/ratchet combo over just a dog/ratchet is the elimination of a bit of handle backplay.  For some folks it is worth it.   For me, not so much.  I will have a strong preference for dog/ratchet only.

One-way bearings are a bit finicky.  They require just the right amount of spring tension, with just the right amount of clearance and freeplay between a set of moving parts.  And they have to jam tightly and quickly to avoid excess rubbing when locking.  This is why lubricating a one-way bearing compromises the performance and reliability.  Grease is especially bad.  

BUT,  the rollers and "races" have to be hardened steel in order to have reasonable wear rear resistance to the rubbing when locking.   Most stainless alloys that can be hardened are not very saltwater resistant.  The same alloy used for stainless ball bearings is typically what is used for these one-way bearings.   This makes the one-way bearings subject to corrosion for saltwater use (freshwater should not be an issue).

Industry standard size one-way bearings that fit a reel handle shaft do not have that much locking strength, and are often close to torque limits when used on a high gear ratio saltwater reel with the drag set reasonably tight.    With some lubrication, contamination, etc., the max locking load is decreased significantly.  When the bearings are slipping, rollers are scraping against the shaft and/or races.

If the one way bearing components corrode and fuse together, it will usually be in the open position.   A corroded or gummed up one-way will probably add some friction when turning the crank.   How noticeable, I do not know.  

All of this is why saltwater reels with only one-way bearings have had some bad reviews over time.   A backup dog/ratchet takes care of most of the problems, but there still is the issue of the rusting one-way corroding the shaft and/or sideplate, and the potential for a one-way bearing failure in a locked position.

A reel is is only as reliable as it's weakest link.   A one-way bearing in a saltwater reel is a weak link from a reliability perspective.

-J

[redsetta]

Not sure if it's of any value for ya Steve, but I did something similar with an Everol 12/0 some years back.
As the AR bearing was a weak point and extremely difficult to remove once corroded, I decided to turn up a bushing from high-temp industrial nylon.

• https://alantani.com/index.php?topic=5042.0

Let us know how you proceed.
Good luck, Justin

[oc1]

Actually, I want to get rid of the AR all together and make it a knuckle buster.  Somewhere in this mess there is a piece of UHMWPE plastic cutting board that might work.  Thank you all again.
-steve

[Robert Janssen]

FWIW many roller-ramp clutches are available in identical dimensions as regular needle roller bearings. See  those from INA for example, and similar from Koyo and Torrington.

Also fwiw Justin, the Everols didn't use AR bearings; it was a regular needle roller bearing. But as you noticed, yours was so rusted it was hard to tell.

.

[redsetta]

Thanks for that Doc!

[oc1]

Yes, thank you very much.
-steve

[mhc]

Not sure how much effort you want to put into this reel Steve, but after you get rid of the AR clutch bearing, have you considered a disengaging AR dog - something along the squidder or mariner style? Maybe the brass keyed gear that drives the level wind could be replaced with a ratchet, and then find somewhere to put a dog with a tail that allows it to be disengaged when you want knuckle buster mode. There seems to be a bit of room for a dog and post.

Mike

[oc1]

Yeah, that occurred to me Mike but I don't really ever need an AR.  I'm plagued by having the braid dig into the spool just like what was discussed here in recent weeks:
https://alantani.com/index.php?topic=30189.0
Trying to drag a jig over coral rubble results in continual snags.  Most of the snags pull free pretty easily, some are more stubborn and every once n a while there will be one impossible to free.  But, every time it takes a bit of pressure to free the jig the line digs into the spool.  Without an AR, releasing thumb pressure on the spool and raising the rod tip will pull off a few feet of line and remove the spot where the line dug in.  With an AR, the reel has to be taken out of gear to pull off a few feet and then put back into gear to continue on.  Life is simpler without an AR.... as long as you don't bust a knuckle.

I went to Boca Bearing and found a needle bearing like Robert Janssen described and a better quality spool bearing.  They had the exact size for both.  Fifteen bucks worth of bearings to monkey around with a $30 reel.  Still cheap entertainment though.

-steve