8500SS build

[mhc]

Rudy is correct, cast aluminium doesn't anodize very well. From what I've read, the casting alloys have stuff like copper, silicon, zinc, magnesium etc added to improve casting properties but these additives don't convert to aluminium oxide during anodizing and can result in a porous grey or speckled finish depending on what's in the alloy. The usual caustic etch used for aluminium removes Al but exposes more of the other stuff - some of the grown ups use an acid based etch tailored to the specific contaminates, nitric acid for the copper and fluoride-bearing acids for the silicon etc to remove some of the other stuff from the surface but still say it is unlikely to achieve great aesthetics.
I don't know what's in the alloy Penn used to cast the frame and rotor on the spinfisher reels but I'm reluctant to experiment and risk contaminating my bath - Sulphuric acid (for the bath) is hard to buy in Aus even though just about all vehicles have a few litres in their battery.

Mike

[JasonGotaProblem]

Progress! I truly underestimated how long this would take. Someone suggested I use oven cleaner because it would supposedly dissolve everything. It did not. I've just been sanding away. Obviously not finished yet.

[JasonGotaProblem]

I've never been one to wait around. It doesnt seem like I'm gonna find an aftermarket ratchet kit for sale, so I designed my own. I've started sending this out to machine shops for quotes this morning. If I get it cut and it works out, I'll make my .stl files available for download. Wish me luck!

I've changed the name of this thread to remove the word "ideas." We're past the idea stage, I'm building.

[philaroman]

One can make the dogs synchronous as well as spring load the by adding springs but I have never tried it. I have not seen the dog system fail on these reels but definitely could be better in the back play.

with that in mind, why not just make the 2nd dog alternate (or, would it make too much of a racket)?

effectively double #stop-points / cut back-play in half, AND

provide backup for the original dog hitting original big ratchet teeth -- which never fails, anyway


here's an idea:  design a "FLIPPABLE" 2nd dog -- i.e., on the same tapped hole,
install the dog one way & it's concurrent...  flip it over & it alternates

[JasonGotaProblem]

One can make the dogs synchronous as well as spring load the by adding springs but I have never tried it. I have not seen the dog system fail on these reels but definitely could be better in the back play.

with that in mind, why not just make the 2nd dog alternate (or, would it make too much of a racket)?

effectively double #stop-points / cut back-play in half, AND

provide backup for the original dog hitting original big ratchet teeth -- which never fails, anyway


here's an idea:  design a "FLIPPABLE" 2nd dog -- i.e., on the same tapped hole,
install the dog one way & it's concurrent...  flip it over & it alternates

Interesting thoughts. If i wanted to make them alternate I would have 3 choices: move the post, give the ratchet an odd # of teeth, or possibly shorten a dog. Of all those the odd # of teeth would be the most feasible. If what I've heard (there's a youtube vid of one reeling posted my another forum member elsewhere) they're gonna make a racket anyway. Im fine with that. I want them working synchronously but i have no idea if they are aligned as such from the factory.

Also the image i posted has an octagonal cutout when it should be hex. That will be corrected before it goes to production.

[jurelometer]

A laser or waterjet shop will probably be able to do the parts for a lot less than a machinist. After the setup/job fee, the costs per unit go way down as well.  There are some online shops that cater to hobbyists.  It might be harder to get a local shop to handle a very small order.  It is just not worth their time.

These are flat, two dimensional parts with some pretty generous tolerances, so machining is not necessary.  Genereally speaking, these type of parts are not machined unless you need to get under a thou or three  in accuracy.

If machined as drawn,  a broach will need to be made to cut the hex hole, and broaching thinner stainless plate  might get a bit tricky.  Not sure that you can  broach it in a press without some additional fixturing, so  it may have to be a rotary broach. Also the part will have to be mounted on an indexer /fourth axis to cut the teeth (more fixturing?).  Won't be cheap.

If you use a waterjet shop,  the less costly machines cut an angled kerf that can be a problem with thicker mechanical parts, so you need to specify the tolerance for kerf angle in the bid request.  A decent shop will know all about this and can advise you if they are not too busy.

With a laser cutter,  kerf  angle is typically less of a problem, but if the part needs any of the holes tapped, you may need to drill them separately, as work hardening on laser cut edges can be an issue.

Adam used to use a waterjet  to cut the same parts that you are making.  Lee does dogs and drag washers, both waterjet and laser (I think). I have cut a few 2D stainless and aluminum parts on a waterjet.  Lots of fun. I haven't laser cut metals myself, so no firsthand knowledge.


BTW, pointy ratchet teeth might not be the best option, especially if you go with alternating dogs.  You don't want to end up spearing a dog with a ratchet tooth.  Not sure how much this matters for this particular reel.  If you resized the ratchet diameter, or changed the dog length at all, there are some rules about designing dog and pawl systems for maximum strength that you may want to consider.  There is a thread somewhere on this site that discusses this.

In terms of painting the reel, Powder coating is by far the best option.  I have a couple threads on that, plus there are a few others. Rattle can and baking might be a less expensive option, just don't use the oven that you cook food in.
 
And if you want to do all of this the most economical way,  Chad has a larger SS Penn for sale with lots of the goodies installed.  It is in the classified section.  Not as fun as doing it yourself, but almost always cheaper in the end.


-J

[JasonGotaProblem]

A laser or waterjet shop will probably be able to do the parts for a lot less than a machinist. After the setup/job fee, the costs per unit go way down as well.  There are some online shops that cater to hobbyists.  It might be harder to get a local shop to handle a very small order.  It is just not worth their time.

These are flat, two dimensional parts with some pretty generous tolerances, so machining is not necessary.  Genereally speaking, these type of parts are not machined unless you need to get under a thou or three  in accuracy.

If machined as drawn,  a broach will need to be made to cut the hex hole, and broaching thinner stainless plate  might get a bit tricky.  Not sure that you can  broach it in a press without some additional fixturing, so  it may have to be a rotary broach. Also the part will have to be mounted on an indexer /fourth axis to cut the teeth (more fixturing?).  Won't be cheap.

If you use a waterjet shop,  the less costly machines cut an angled kerf that can be a problem with thicker mechanical parts, so you need to specify the tolerance for kerf angle in the bid request.  A decent shop will know all about this and can advise you if they are not too busy.

With a laser cutter,  kerf  angle is typically less of a problem, but if the part needs any of the holes tapped, you may need to drill them separately, as work hardening on laser cut edges can be an issue.

Adam used to use a waterjet  to cut the same parts that you are making.  Lee does dogs and drag washers, both waterjet and laser (I think). I have cut a few 2D stainless and aluminum parts on a waterjet.  Lots of fun. I haven't laser cut metals myself, so no firsthand knowledge.

It seems like my path forward is water jet cutting. The part will be 2mm or 0.08" for what it's worth. I've been doing a lot of research, it's humbling seeing how much i didn't know about this topic. I could frame a house or build a dresser with ornate trim work for you, but i know very little about metal work.

BTW, pointy ratchet teeth might not be the best option, especially if you go with alternating dogs.  You don't want to end up spearing a dog with a ratchet tooth.  Not sure how much this matters for this particular reel.  If you resized the ratchet diameter, or changed the dog length at all, there are some rules about designing dog and pawl systems for maximum strength that you may want to consider.  There is a thread somewhere on this site that discusses this.

I'll have to dig up that thread. I put some thought into teeth angles etc, I'm kind of a geometry nerd. But I'm certain there's more to learn. I have no intention of alternating the dogs to me the point of having two is them working in unison. I plan to have dogs made of the same or stronger metal as the ratchet.

What if I just 3d printed it, made a mold, and cast it in brass? I may or may not have access to a home made blast furnace. I know it'll be weaker but i figure i can make a few and just replace more often. Not leaning toward that as the path forward but it seems to my non metallurgic brain an idea worth considering.

In terms of painting the reel, Powder coating is by far the best option.  I have a couple threads on that, plus there are a few others. Rattle can and baking might be a less expensive option, just don't use the oven that you cook food in.
 

I'm gonna polish the heck out of it and likely wax it from time to time. I'm not painting it. I know I'm signing myself up for some upkeep but I have not seen another polished 8500SS. Kinda cool to be the only one or one of few.

And if you want to do all of this the most economical way,  Chad has a larger SS Penn for sale with lots of the goodies installed.  It is in the classified section.  Not as fun as doing it yourself, but almost always cheaper in the end.


-J

I saw that. Its gorgeous and it partially inspired some of my choices. And you are absolutely correct and I don't disagree. But I'm already $150 and 6 labor hours into this. I'll likely be $220-250 and 20 hours into it before I call it finished. I could just buy a pretty decent reel for that and spend that time fishing.
This is 100% for the joy of it. I learned how computers work by building a computer. I learned how cars work by helping build cars. I took this as an opportunity to do the same for a reels. And I damn sure wasnt gonna start with a modern shimano or something. These reels are a bit more forgiving than many others for a beginner. Also I can never just do something simple like merely fix the busted AR by replacing the busted pieces (and i even bought the parts to do so!). I have a tendency to go overboard. But i have fun. My wife has learned to tolerate me.

Thank you for the informative post.

[oc1]

If you are going to have these mass-produced for distribution, then carry on.  If it's a one-off (or two or three) then the fastest and most efficient method may be to take out a file and a dremel and carve it.  You see dogs that are some sort of brass or bronze that is easy to work.
-s

[JasonGotaProblem]

If you are going to have these mass-produced for distribution, then carry on.  If it's a one-off (or two or three) then the fastest and most efficient method may be to take out a file and a dremel and carve it.  You see dogs that are some sort of brass or bronze that is easy to work.
-s

Man I wanna argue with you but you.might be onto something here. Given the dimensions I might be able to do that with a SS washer on the super cheap. I might actually already have some that are roughly the right dimensions (half inch hole, more than an inch outside and fairly thick) and a dremel. If the prices the water jet folks come back with aren't reasonable I may go that route.

[foakes]

If you are going to have these mass-produced for distribution, then carry on.  If it's a one-off (or two or three) then the fastest and most efficient method may be to take out a file and a dremel and carve it.  You see dogs that are some sort of brass or bronze that is easy to work.
-s

Man I wanna argue with you but you.might be onto something here.

You will soon find out to never discount what Steve sez!

He has a lot of skills, common sense approaches, and experience.

He makes 1/0's out of coconut shells tied together with bamboo strips! 

Steve is the first guy you want with you on the Wagon Train heading West.

Best, Fred

[JasonGotaProblem]

If you are going to have these mass-produced for distribution, then carry on.  If it's a one-off (or two or three) then the fastest and most efficient method may be to take out a file and a dremel and carve it.  You see dogs that are some sort of brass or bronze that is easy to work.
-s

Man I wanna argue with you but you.might be onto something here.

You will soon find out to never discount what Steve sez!

He has a lot of skills, common sense approaches, and experience.

He makes 1/0's out of coconut shells tied together with bamboo strips! 

Steve is the first guy you want with you on the Wagon Train heading West.

Best, Fred

While you're here, you were mentioned as someone who may have input on how to seal polished aluminum (which is what I'll be doing with the body of the reel). Any comments to offer?

[oc1]

Steve is the first guy you want with you on the Wagon Train heading West.

Nah, he'd have to keep stopping to go to the bathroom.

[jurelometer]

Steve is right as usual.

I am not a wizard with the hand tools like Steve, so I usually draw up and 3D print plastic fixtures/templates, file guides etc., for routing, grinding, cutting filing and bending small metal parts. Sounds like you have access to a 3D printer, so I would suggest giving this a go. An indexing file guide for the pawl teeth would be a fun project in its own right.

If you are using brass, any old set of mini files, drill bits, rotary burrs, etc. will work, but if you go for stainless you will need  some better quality. Drill with slower RPMs and with some extra force and lots of cutting fluid on stainless, or it will work harden in an instant and fry your drill bits. You need to cut below the surface on each rotation, and the cutting edges have to keep digging (no rubbing). Stainless is a bit of a pain to work with rotary cutting/drilling.  Do everything right and it cuts like butter, but get your feeds/speeds or cutting depth off, and it can be a miserable experience.

If you read up on work hardening and stainless steel and how to avoid it, you will be well on your way.   


But maybe better to start with brass. One of the easiest metals to work with.

-J.

[oc1]

But maybe better to start with brass. One of the easiest metals to work with.

Agreed.  You don't see brass ratchets, but you do see brass dogs.  It is as though the dog is sacrificial.  In this case, both dog and ratchet are sacrificial because you can just make another one and have a good story to tell.
-s

[JasonGotaProblem]

But maybe better to start with brass. One of the easiest metals to work with.

Agreed.  You don't see brass ratchets, but you do see brass dogs.  It is as though the dog is sacrificial.  In this case, both dog and ratchet are sacrificial because you can just make another one and have a good story to tell.
-s

Wanna see a brass ratchet? Stock penn gear in the 8500SS