8500SS build

Started by JasonGotaProblem, August 28, 2020, 03:37:41 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

JasonGotaProblem

I still have a lot of polishing to do but I couldn't help myself. I wanted to see what it'll look like. This is gonna be worth it.
Any machine is a smoke machine if you use it wrong enough.

ReelFishingProblems

Are you going to anodize it or put some sort of seal/coating when you're done?

I polished up a 704Z and didn't do any coating. I use mother's polish on it every few months just to bring the shine back.

Nick

philaroman

#32
are you sure you want to keep polishing?
isn't that dull-grey just natural AlO2...  kinda' like anodizing,
but only a few molecules deep, instead of layered on artificially
if that "aged aluminum" look was acquired away from salt -- maybe, keep it  :-\

Swami805

Once you get the tiny scratches out try some Simachrome on a demel polishing wheel. I've had pretty good results with that
Do what you can with that you have where you are

JasonGotaProblem

Quote from: Swami805 on September 07, 2020, 03:52:48 PM
Once you get the tiny scratches out try some Simachrome on a demel polishing wheel. I've had pretty good results with that
I'm doing progressively finer sandpaper. I'll go to buffing compound with the dremel after I'm done with the 2000 sandpaper then likely a coat of carnauba wax.
Also I figured out which knob.
Any machine is a smoke machine if you use it wrong enough.

handi2

#35
This has been done to the Penn 750 and 850SS reels for years now. This way you have 2 silent dogs on all the time. It also eliminates accidental turning both dogs off by the rear lever. To make the reel go backwards you have to turn both levers off.

I should have 2 of the clicking dogs in SS. Maybe the ratchet too. They used to be able for purchase here on the forum with the 16 tooth SS ratchet. It made the reel so loud most did not use it. It's nothing new.

Keith
OCD Reel Service & Repair
Gulf Breeze, FL

JasonGotaProblem

Quote from: handi2 on September 07, 2020, 09:25:04 PM
This has been done to the Penn 750 and 850SS reels for years now. This way you have 2 silent dogs on all the time. It also eliminates accidental turning both dogs off by the rear lever. To make the reel go backwards you have to turn both levers off.

I should have 2 of the clicking dogs in SS. Maybe the ratchet too. They used to be able for purchase here on the forum with the 16 tooth SS ratchet. It made the reel so loud most did not use it. It's nothing new.

Keith
It seems the problem is its too old. Many of those cool bits were limited run parts that are now gone. I've been in contact with three se7vens and he may have one on a shelf somewhere. Am I interpreting you correctly that you may have a set available to spare? I may be going with the overly optimistic reading of what you said but if so I'm very interested.

I'm Not necessarily worried about noise but I can always go to double silent on the 16 tooth if it just gets to be too much.
Any machine is a smoke machine if you use it wrong enough.

handi2

After 30 minutes of looking I've found one SS dog. I have thousands of parts that are mostly in a mess. I'll keep looking.

Keith
OCD Reel Service & Repair
Gulf Breeze, FL

JasonGotaProblem

Quote from: handi2 on September 08, 2020, 06:28:06 PM
After 30 minutes of looking I've found one SS dog. I have thousands of parts that are mostly in a mess. I'll keep looking.

Keith
Man that would drive me crazy. I don't think I'd successfully be able to identify anything. I have this reel disassembled in a tupperware, with a self imposed rule that unless I'm reassembling it only one part is allowed out of the bin at a time.
But I'm a terribly disorganized person and I know one missing piece and this show comes to a screeching halt. So I have to rein in my own chaos.
Any machine is a smoke machine if you use it wrong enough.

JasonGotaProblem

Looks like I skipped some stuff that was worthy of comment.
Quote from: ReelFishingProblems on September 07, 2020, 10:57:46 AM
...I polished up a 704Z...
That was you? (Or are there a few out there?) Well done. Your reel was my inspiration for the visual portion of this whole undertaking. When my wife is looking for someone to blame for the sound of constant sanding I'll send her your way.
Quote from: jurelometer on September 07, 2020, 01:20:51 AM
Steve is right as usual.
I'm noticing that.
Quote
:)Sounds like you have access to a 3D printer, so I would suggest giving this a go
I Do but its my brother in law's and he's 120 miles away. So it's available but not readily so.
QuoteDo everything right and it cuts like butter, but get your feeds/speeds or cutting depth off, and it can be a miserable experience.

If you read up on work hardening and stainless steel and how to avoid it, you will be well on your way.   
Man I wish i had known about this 20 years ago as its something I've experienced many times and blown through many a drill bit and saw blade fighting. Not knowing enough to know what you need to learn about, etc. Again, if you need to dog ear a joint on trim moulding, I'm your guy. Metal, less so.
Quote
But maybe better to start with brass.
I've thought about it. My concern is that there's likely a reason Penn went with only 6 teeth on the stock ratchet. And that reason is that brass may not be strong enough for smaller teeth with any kind of longevity. So the answer may be that if I make it out of brass I'd need to make several and be ready to swap them out.
The other concern for manually cutting my own ratchet is that if I do a double sprung setup the dog and the teeth will rub constantly during rotation. If I use a steel ratchet and brass dogs, the business edge of the dogs will be worn down fairly quickly. So I would need to cut steel dogs as well.

Also I'm strongly considering sawing off and filing down the external bail trip. I hate the bail flipping during a cast, but I'm not sure I'd like a bail-less setup. I figure if there's ever a time to do it, its now. Any considerations here that might not be obvious to me?
Any machine is a smoke machine if you use it wrong enough.

jurelometer

Quote from: JasonGotaPenn on September 10, 2020, 02:17:20 PM


I've thought about it. My concern is that there's likely a reason Penn went with only 6 teeth on the stock ratchet. And that reason is that brass may not be strong enough for smaller teeth with any kind of longevity. So the answer may be that if I make it out of brass I'd need to make several and be ready to swap them out.
The other concern for manually cutting my own ratchet is that if I do a double sprung setup the dog and the teeth will rub constantly during rotation. If I use a steel ratchet and brass dogs, the business edge of the dogs will be worn down fairly quickly. So I would need to cut steel dogs as well.

While it is important not to dismiss the possibility that something that looks goofy in a design was done for a good reason,  it is also a mistake to give too much deference to the original designer.  The more complicated the design, the more likely that screwups will occur.   But it  happens all the time on something as simple as a fishing reel.  For example,  Penn screwed up the dog and pawl design on the BajaSpecial/US Senator line in a very apparent way.

Alternating dogs will split up the wear.   Remember that the big Penn conventionals have a brass dog and pawl system that is on the wrong side of the gears (gear ratio increases the load on the dog), and the pawl is on a shaft that is not well supported, so alignment is an issue.  Dogs wearing out is not a major issue with these reels. 

Not using too strong a spring tension will help decrease wear, as will rounding the pawl tooth tips.

I could be wrong, but I don't think that brass is going to be that bad.  But if you are going to get them cut with a waterjet,  might as well go stainless.  316 would be the best choice, but 302 is frequently used.

Also, there are a couple reasons why silent dogs would probably work better with bigger pawl teeth.   But I don't want to get off track here.


Quote
Also I'm strongly considering sawing off and filing down the external bail trip. I hate the bail flipping during a cast, but I'm not sure I'd like a bail-less setup. I figure if there's ever a time to do it, its now. Any considerations here that might not be obvious to me?

You have  hunt for the bail remnant at the end of each cast, and/or   futz with the rotation so it will located in the optimal spot.  Some types of fishing (e.g.,  unweighted live bait) require going from open bail to closed with a large fish taking off at speed.  Flipping the bail  by turning the handle is relatively safe and easy to accomplish.  Trying to tuck some 80 lb spectra into the bail remnant while the coils are flying off the spool, not so much.

I think that wade-surf guys who fish lures popularized bail-less spinners.  The full bail gets jammed up by the sand, and lure fishing does not require much free lining, although you can still get a pick up on the initial drop.

-J

JasonGotaProblem

Quote from: jurelometer on September 10, 2020, 03:58:17 PM
Quote from: JasonGotaPenn on September 10, 2020, 02:17:20 PM


I've thought about it. My concern is that there's likely a reason Penn went with only 6 teeth on the stock ratchet. And that reason is that brass may not be strong enough for smaller teeth with any kind of longevity. So the answer may be that if I make it out of brass I'd need to make several and be ready to swap them out.
The other concern for manually cutting my own ratchet is that if I do a double sprung setup the dog and the teeth will rub constantly during rotation. If I use a steel ratchet and brass dogs, the business edge of the dogs will be worn down fairly quickly. So I would need to cut steel dogs as well.

While it is important not to dismiss the possibility that something that looks goofy in a design was done for a good reason,  it is also a mistake to give too much deference to the original designer.  The more complicated the design, the more likely that screwups will occur.   But it  happens all the time on something as simple as a fishing reel.  For example,  Penn screwed up the dog and pawl design on the BajaSpecial/US Senator line in a very apparent way.
very true. Having a very limited amount of metalworking knowledge i have a tendency to assume that there's a valid reason someone who knows more than me did things the way they did. Not always true.
Quote
Alternating dogs will split up the wear.
Yeah but it would double the noise and the load on the individual dogs and lessen the strengthening wffect of going to double sprung dogs. It would decrease handle play though which would be nice. Could be easily achieved by going to an odd # of teeth.
Quote
Dogs wearing out is not a major issue with these reels. 
You mean on these SS models or the big conventionals? I've generally heard that the dogs are the weakest point on these reels and do wear out. It's likely I'm misunderstanding what you're saying.
Quote
Not using too strong a spring tension will help decrease wear, as will rounding the pawl tooth tips.
If I cut my own from steel I'll be rounding the tips a bit for this reason. 316 steel washers exist in the right size to minimize the cutting I'd have to do. Turns out brass washers are available in that size too, but a bit less common. I may go that route out of sheer laziness if it's that much easier to cut, AND i dont need to worry about corrosion. Maybe I'll split the difference and go to a 12 tooth brass edition.
Absolutely all of these options involve making my own springs. As such I will likely try to go as light as i can while still making them work. I suspect a strong spring will be felt in the force needed to turn the handle. Likely not a huge difference but I'm assuming it will be felt.

Quote
I could be wrong, but I don't think that brass is going to be that bad.  But if you are going to get them cut with a waterjet,  might as well go stainless.  316 would be the best choice, but 302 is frequently used.
If i get them waterjet cut I'm going titanium. The difference in material price between that and steel is less of a factor than the minimum order sizes I'm running into (more on that later, I may try to rally the troops and put a larger order together but lets not get ahead of ourselves).
Quote
Also, there are a couple reasons why silent dogs would probably work better with bigger pawl teeth.   But I don't want to get off track here.
Let's not pretend this is a well focused thread.

Quote

You have  hunt for the bail remnant at the end of each cast, and/or   futz with the rotation so it will located in the optimal spot.  Some types of fishing (e.g.,  unweighted live bait) require going from open bail to closed with a large fish taking off at speed.  Flipping the bail  by turning the handle is relatively safe and easy to accomplish.  Trying to tuck some 80 lb spectra into the bail remnant while the coils are flying off the spool, not so much.

I think that wade-surf guys who fish lures popularized bail-less spinners.  The full bail gets jammed up by the sand, and lure fishing does not require much free lining, although you can still get a pick up on the initial drop.

-J
My limited understanding is that bail-less setups are better suited for those using lures, and other situations where there's always tension on the line. This rig will likely be primarily used with live bait, either free lining or with minimal weight so I'm not sure it would be a good idea. I feel like if i eliminate the bail trip then there's no risk of it flipping by surprise during a cast at the expense of my terminal tackle. Best of both worlds? To me it makes sense to do it now while I'm doing all this grinding before i finish polishing. So if i don't do it now it likely won't ever be done. (would it surprise you to learn that I massively underestimated the P.I.T.A. that I signed myself up for by deciding to polish the aluminum?)
Any machine is a smoke machine if you use it wrong enough.

philaroman

consult the metal guys about how much to remove... 
pretty sure you don't want to cut it anywhere close to flush (gross structural weakening)

jurelometer

Quote
You mean on these SS models or the big conventionals? I've generally heard that the dogs are the weakest point on these reels and do wear out. It's likely I'm misunderstanding what you're saying.

Conventional star drags with gear sleeves have a problem keeping the handle shaft straight.  This  causes gear shredding (the predominant case) and can cause dog failure ( I believe relatively rare for most Senator models, but the reel repair experts can correct me).  At any rate,  stronger dog/pawl materials don't help much, if you have angled the pawl above/below the dog. Sticking more dogs in doesn't help much either.  The gear sleeve is the weak link on these reels.  For the reels with well supported dog shafts (i.e. screw through, not peened in posts), the dogs hold well.   None of these design issues are very relevant to you spinner other than dog post support.

I have fished completely beat down 113H reels used for commercial rod and reel fishing, where the handle is loose, the gears are grinding, you have to slap the sideplate to get it to go into gear.  Just about everything on the reel worn out, but the dogs are just clicking away, same as day one from the factory.

Quote
Quote
Alternating dogs will split up the wear.
Yeah but it would double the noise and the load on the individual dogs and lessen the strengthening wffect of going to double sprung dogs. It would decrease handle play though which would be nice. Could be easily achieved by going to an odd # of teeth.

As I mentioned before, having dogs work in unison may not be the strongest option.  Has to do with elasticity (or lack thereof) in the dog system, and the acceleration gained from additional backplay.  Acres of threads on this topic.



Quote
I suspect a strong spring will be felt in the force needed to turn the handle. Likely not a huge difference but I'm assuming it will be felt.

Not much on a big reel like this.  Lighter springs means that you might not  have to hand out earplugs :)

Quote
If i get them waterjet cut I'm going titanium. The difference in material price between that and steel is less of a factor than the minimum order sizes I'm running into (more on that later, I may try to rally the troops and put a larger order together but lets not get ahead of ourselves).

Haven't worked with titanium.  If it is annealed, it is in the soft side, mebbe too soft for your purpose.   

BTW most brass is less saltwater corrosion resistant than most 300 series stainless steel.

If you just want a quick rundown, McMaster Carr has an overview for each class of metal that sells ("About Brass", etc.)   It covers most of the bases for the most common alloys and tempering options.

Quote
This rig will likely be primarily used with live bait, either free lining or with minimal weight so I'm not sure it would be a good idea. I feel like if i eliminate the bail trip then there's no risk of it flipping by surprise during a cast at the expense of my terminal tackle. Best of both worlds?

I don't understand what you mean by best of both worlds on the bail modification.   If you have ever had a decent tuna pick up a free-lined bait on the run, you know how fast the coils can fly off the spool.  Without a full bail, you have to stick your finger in there to guide the line to the roller and start winding without getting a wrap around your finger.   With braid, a hard charging fish will do some damage.  That wrap is not coming off of your finger until the fish stops, breaks off, you cut the line, or you pickup the new nickname of "Stubby".

If somebody handed me a live baited spinner without a full bail during a hot tuna bite, I would hand it back, and take a seat.   But that's just the opinion of a person who is attached to his fingers.

-J

philaroman

J,

he means to cutshave external bail-trip for manual-only full bail
needs to know how much "nub" to remove w/out loss of structural integrity ???