Reel Down Surf Rods

Started by Jeri, October 20, 2020, 09:28:08 AM

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oc1

What I like about the reel down is you do not have to hold that 25 to 30 inch surf rod handle in your crotch.  It's so phallic, unseemly and perhaps dangerous.
-steve

Jeri

Unfortunately, this is diverging slightly into 2 topics, casting and rod build style.

On the casting aspect, perhaps Jurelometer has picked perhaps one of the most advanced styles of casting, which while it does encompass so many of the principles, it also makes it quite complex. 2 videos that perhaps explain the more basic fundamental elements are below:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=f12rBB-mgDU

www.youtube.com/watch?v=4VRCTVm-LxY

The 'Easy Cast' shown works equally well with reel down or reel up, and with all types of reel, and it doesn't necessarily have to have the small element of body rotation. This non-rotational scheme is what I teach rank beginners to get the foundation of the technique right, taught a 12 year old little girl to cast 5oz sinkers repeatedly to over 80 metres, without any physicality into her cast because she just didn't have the body mass. It is also a technique I use to help much older folks to cast, especially if they have difficulties from shoulder or back injuries.

Casting styles then start to develop from the basic Easy Cast to Hatteras, Brighton, European Pendulum and even Backcast styles, all of which require more body rotation and micro second perfect timing to manage the power generated in the blank.

The next video is of an 'advanced version of Off the Ground (OTG), which achieved a measured 281 metres.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=E-4ZHno68xU

To answer the question of how low do we set the reel seat? - 8" from the end of the blank to the threaded start of the reel seat on fixed spool rods, and just turn the reel seat round for deliberate multiplier reel usage. That allows sufficient room for most people using a rod belt, but can be expended for folks with a slightly wider waistline.......  :)

Above the reel seat we fit the Breakaway Canon for fixed spool rods, and then typically 26-28" of handle grip material, this rarely comes in for critisism for being too short. We even build some of the lighter surf rods with split grip or Poodle grip, where the middle 8" is omitted, and just bare blank remains. This forces the folks to hang onto the very upper part of the grip to maximise their casting potential.

Jeri

Quote from: oc1 on November 05, 2020, 06:06:59 AM
What I like about the reel down is you do not have to hold that 25 to 30 inch surf rod handle in your crotch.  It's so phallic, unseemly and perhaps dangerous.
-steve

Totally agree, but does great for rod sales, when we introduced a 15' new rod - 'I want the biggest on the beach!'   :) :) :) :)

On a more serious note, length of surf rods is another contentious discussion, which to date has no answer. Have found that a recent trend down here among the competition anglers was to look towards longer rods, then during Lockdown, we experimented with a much shorter rod at 13'-6", and subsequent testing has proved that it was casting further than some of the 14' & 15' rods. Go figure??

Tiddlerbasher

Jeri - I tried one of the 15ft rods some years ago - I couldn't develop the power to fully load it - casting distance was pants. I think you have to have a bit of bulk/muscle mass to make the longer rods work. I went back to a 13ft surf casting rod.

These days I'm much happier with a featherweight fly rod ;D

JasonGotaProblem

Maybe its just my particularly competitive circle of friends, but around here how far one can cast is seen as a metric of one's fishing ability, and can be the source of pride or ridicule. I still have A LOT of room for refinement in my surf casting technique but on 50 lb braid with an 11' rod I can send a 2oz weight 150 yds away in neutral or favorable winds. And that has still gotten me laughed at.
I'm gonna study these videos a bit. I guess it's sad that my casting technique is all trial and error with a dash of social pressure. I never bothered to look up videos on technique.

The "trigger" arrives today, I think. I'm looking forward to testing it.
Any machine is a smoke machine if you use it wrong enough.

jurelometer

Great stuf Jeri!  Thanks!

That was a very useful breakdown on casting styles and handle layouts.  I like  the colorful term "poodle tail" for the split front grip.  I hope that it does not cause more anxiety for Steve. 

-J

oc1

Quote from: JasonGotaPenn on November 05, 2020, 02:54:32 PM
I can send a 2oz weight 150 yds and that has still gotten me laughed at.
Tough neighborhood.

Jeri

Quote from: JasonGotaPenn on November 05, 2020, 02:54:32 PM
Maybe its just my particularly competitive circle of friends, but around here how far one can cast is seen as a metric of one's fishing ability, and can be the source of pride or ridicule. I still have A LOT of room for refinement in my surf casting technique but on 50 lb braid with an 11' rod I can send a 2oz weight 150 yds away in neutral or favorable winds. And that has still gotten me laughed at.
I'm gonna study these videos a bit. I guess it's sad that my casting technique is all trial and error with a dash of social pressure. I never bothered to look up videos on technique.

The "trigger" arrives today, I think. I'm looking forward to testing it.

The trigger will allow you to push a lot more power through the rod, that isn't possible with a finger, especially on braid. And, if you cut the braid weight down from 50lb to 25lb and used a 50lb casting leader you would almost certainly see a 10-15% increase in distance, its all about the weight of line the sinker needs to carry to distance from the limited power you are imparting with the cast.

Our 'light' surf rod design was deliberately 12' to optimise distance for the lighter weight situations. Just now developing guide scheme for a 13' prototype blank that is aimed at 4oz sinker + bait. First approximation is a Low Rider and KR concept hybrid scheme with end running guides of size 8, we will see whether size 6 gets us more power after the first tests.

Surf casting long rods is a combination of technique and getting the blank optimised on power that it can yield, and not hindering the blank with excess guide weight or flat spots where double leg guides are anchored.

Cor

I have been away for a few days to where the internet was non existent!

About 3 weeks ago I wrote the following on a similar topic  https://alantani.com/index.php?topic=32177.msg376409#msg376409
Perhaps a somewhat different approach.
Cornelis

Cor

#24
Quote from: Tiddlerbasher on November 05, 2020, 01:36:28 PM
Jeri - I tried one of the 15ft rods some years ago - I couldn't develop the power to fully load it - casting distance was pants. I think you have to have a bit of bulk/muscle mass to make the longer rods work. I went back to a 13ft surf casting rod.

These days I'm much happier with a featherweight fly rod ;D
We're dealing with various factors and leverage.   I always say a rig has to be balanced for the caster to be able to attain the "sweet spot" in the cast.  You want the correct rod strength, action and length, combined with the right casting weight to fully load the rod and obtain the maximum distance.  The casters strength is certainly a significant factor and this takes for granted that the caster has the skills and correct technique.   I many instances there are fishing related factors which may limit changes to other casting factors, like line weight, casting weight etc.

I have been reducing my rod strength and going for somewhat slower action rods to compensate for my age related decreasing  back and arm muscles. :( :(

If you attempt to cast a rod that is too strong for you lose distance, but also accuracy as you often hook the cast in an attempt to force it.
Cornelis

JasonGotaProblem

Quote from: jurelometer on November 04, 2020, 11:58:31 PM

In terms of Jason's note about a truism of power coming from the pinky, I don't think that that should be taken literally.  Check out the relative muscle mass involved :).   The pinky is critical for gripping a cylinder, and without a solid grip, you cannot control a swing.  I busted a pinky playing baseball, and lost my batting practice privileges for awhile due to flying bats. I felt plenty strong, but coach said that I was dangerous, whatever that meant.
Ok I forgot to hit this one, but there's more to consider. For one I'm fairly certain, though I'm struggling to find something succinct to prove or disprove, that the pinky is connected to more muscles in your hand than your index is. I'll keep searching but it's not a hill I care to die on. Ive been wrong before.

Loosely related, I know from personal experience that one can have a very tight grip with the bottom portion of one's hand while still keeping your arm relaxed but when you tighten your index finger your arm stiffens. Not sure how thats related to fishing but its a huge consideration in judo.

But give it a test. Find 2 identical hooks that you can hang from your fingers without hurting yourself, hang one from your index and one from pinky (on the same hand)  and start adding weight to both and see which one gives out first. You might be surprised.
Any machine is a smoke machine if you use it wrong enough.

jurelometer

 
Quote from: Cor on November 06, 2020, 12:01:28 PM
I have been away for a few days to where the internet was non existent!

About 3 weeks ago I wrote the following on a similar topic  https://alantani.com/index.php?topic=32177.msg376409#msg376409
Perhaps a somewhat different approach.

Aargh!  I was waiting  for that thread and somehow missed it. My apologies.   A great post - I encourage folks reading this thread to take a look and follow the links. 

This helped me fine tune my personal assesment: There are many benefits listed by reel-down proponents, and the drawbacks often get less attention.   Some of the benefits decsribed seem either dubious or trivial to me, but there is one major benefit that is key:  moving the reel to the bottom hand allows the top hand to be located whoever it needs to be on the rod for a high force cast with a long rod,  which will be too far forward to allow for controlling the reel and maintaining a firm grip with the top hand.

Regarding the super-short butt.  I understand that when casting a reel-down rod, any extra length below the reel is wasted.  But an eight inch butt is too short to wind a long rod under load effectively, especially with a lap belt.  A short rear handle  also makes managing the retrieve difficult.   So your description of a high  "bucket" belt, that is sometimes worn off center to facilitate working lures makes a lot of sense.   

You guys convinced me (mostly :) ).  If  I were to get into long distance surf casting, I would definitely give reel-down a try.  It would have to provide more than a little advantage in distance and efficiency to overcome the other shortcomings of this style though.   It sounds like the bucket belt is a key piece of equipment.


Thanks.  I learned a bunch from these two threads.

-J

oc1

Cor described another benefit that would be huge to me.  The reel down position helps balance the rod and removes part or all of the tip-heaviness.  This coupled with the belly plate would make surf fishing much more comfortable and increase sensitivity.
-steve

Jeri

Quote from: jurelometer on November 06, 2020, 09:33:12 PM


Regarding the super-short butt.  I understand that when casting a reel-down rod, any extra length below the reel is wasted.  But an eight inch butt is too short to wind a long rod under load effectively, especially with a lap belt.  A short rear handle  also makes managing the retrieve difficult. 


Super short butt reel down is remarkably easy, even at 8", been building them like that for over 15 years, and only complaints have come from folks with challenged midriffs  :). It is the norm set both by anglers and the manufacturers catering to the local market, and is even spreading to certain quarters in Australia that are recognising the benefits of this style of surf fishing, both with multiplier and fixed spool reels.

Hip worn butt pads are more the exception than the rule.

Cor

Quote from: Jeri on November 07, 2020, 07:39:57 AM
Quote from: jurelometer on November 06, 2020, 09:33:12 PM


Regarding the super-short butt.  I understand that when casting a reel-down rod, any extra length below the reel is wasted.  But an eight inch butt is too short to wind a long rod under load effectively, especially with a lap belt.  A short rear handle  also makes managing the retrieve difficult. 


Super short butt reel down is remarkably easy, even at 8", been building them like that for over 15 years, and only complaints have come from folks with challenged midriffs  :). It is the norm set both by anglers and the manufacturers catering to the local market, and is even spreading to certain quarters in Australia that are recognising the benefits of this style of surf fishing, both with multiplier and fixed spool reels.

Hip worn butt pads are more the exception than the rule.
I have my shore spinning rig with the reel 6 & 1/2 inches from the rear, boat rod about 2 inches longer.    If you stand casting and retrieving for a long time a longer but becomes painful as you end standing slightly bent forward, whereas I can stand upright and comfortable and hold my rod just in front of the reel.

A photo of some chaps spinning for Yellowtail side by side.
Cornelis